Carbon wheels, why would you bother?

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And no, I wasn't 'fooling myself': riding with the '50% lighter' wheels was easier, quicker and livelier by an order of magnitude, not by .19%, 0.02%, or any other variant of bugger all you care to quote. And if Newton said otherwise, he's never ridden a bike.
As people have repeatedly said in this thread - there is no argument against lighter wheels - of course they make a difference, because they will make the bike lighter. The point that myself and others are making is that it makes no practical, discernible difference how the weight in a set of wheels is distributed.
 
My point is it does. A wheel that has mass concentrated at the rim requires double the power to spin up compared to one with the same mass all concentrated at the axle. The physics derivation is in the section entitled "Kinetic energy of a rotating wheel" in the Wikipedia article I linked to earlier. The biketechreview article's conclusion that wheel mass is of secondary importance and inertia of even less consequence is rubbish.

For those who are interested, such rubbish arose from experimental (rather than theoretical) "insight" arrived from noting the difference of power readings due to different wheel mass was c0.4% while c0.006% from different inertia, when he would be lucky to get within 1% accuracy from individual power meter readings, not to mention errors due to different environmental and other factors from different runs!

Congratulations on reading a wiki page which confirms that rim weight is largely irrelevant - and then coming to precisely the opposite conclusion.. ;)
 

VamP

Banned
Location
Cambs
No. I said 'total rider + bike weight'. Which was, as I say, down to perhaps 99.5% of what it had been. And yet the bike seemed a load quicker etc. (Aero difference was diddly-squat, BTW.)

So to what do you attribute this miraculous 'order of magnitude' improvement in speed?
 

400bhp

Guru
Right then, time for my five penneth, it's like two penneth, but more...

1. Carbon wheels will be new, new = faster! proven by research

2. Likely that carbon wheels will be more expensive, expensive = faster (even if in truth they are slower)

3. Carbon are more likely to be aero, aero = cool + a nicer noise

4. Carbon wheels look better. I will forgive Andrew as he hasn't seen the difference between my bike from alu wheels to carbon wheels. That is my fault for only going on moist or wet rides with him and using the other bike.

5. Rotational mass. I will stumble into this one with a little past experience. My previous track car was a Caterham R500, it weighted in with about half a tank of fuel at 480kgs. The difference between the magnesium wheels and light slick tyres vs. standard wheels or even mag wheels with non light tyres was immense. Bearing in mind this car was light and had a genuine power to weight of 500bhp / tonne, you could very much tell the difference.

Rotation mass does matter, the lighter the better. A lighter overall weight will make getting up hills easier, but having lighter wheels to achieve this, will also make accelerating take less power and overall any change in momentum.

Even better if the carbon, lighter wheels are aero, as being aero they will take less power to maintain at speed.

A light non aero wheel out to take the same power to maintain as an identically shaped but heavier non aero wheel. But the advantages of the light wheel is the easier change in momentum, accelerating and braking. The heavy wheel will have more momentumn, so in theory will slow down lass quickly, but I don't necessarily see that as an advantage, especially if they take the same power to maintain at any given speed.

A light aero carbon wheel will take less power to change momentum i.e. accelerate, but will also take less power to maintain due to the aero advantages. Light and aero beats light and not aero. And light and non aero beats heavy and non aero.

That's my five penneth and some of it has even been scientifically proven...

If you are just going alongside flat at the same speed always, weight of wheels makes no difference, only aero will make a difference, but if you encounter any gradient or need to brake or accelerate then lighter comes into play, along with aero.

Spot on.
 

RecordAceFromNew

Swinging Member
Location
West London
Even Zinn (whose calculations are referenced in that Wiki link you posted) thinks the rotational impact is almost negligible. It only really shows in heavy acceleration, and then it's small.

The conclusion in biketechreview and the Wiki article is the same: rim mass is less important than aero effect. Except perhaps on the steepest of climbs.

''Lighter bikes are easier to get up hills, but the cost of "rotating mass" is only an issue during a rapid acceleration, and it is small even then.''

So I am not really sure what your point is.

Since we are talking about wheels, my point is a mass at the rim not only has to be accelerated linearly in the direction of the bike like any other mass on the bike, it also consumes power when you spin it up as you accelerate (evidenced by the fact that it takes effort to accelerate a wheel even when the bike is stationary on a stand). When we talk about inertia due to the rim of a wheel on the ground, the effort to spin it up is exactly the same as that to make it accelerate in a straight line. It therefore doesn't make sense to say rotating mass is a lot less important than mass when we are talking about wheels - mass at the rim (i.e. rotating mass) will always consume more power than the same mass that is elsewhere on the bike (or closer to the axle). This is why @Dusty Bin is not correct here.

Apart from the questionable way of deducing mass/inertia reduction implication by relying on power meter readings to be more accurate than they possibly can be, according to them biketechreview also lowered wheel mass by 50% by using "all carbon rim wheels", and then associate those results as indicative of "mass reduction". What made them think those "all carbon rim wheels" reduce mass only and not inertia? Surely the reliable way to measure the effect of mass addition/reduction on a wheel is to use a normal wheel and then add a weight to nowhere else but the axle?
 
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VamP

Banned
Location
Cambs
Tail wind? :whistle:


I too have had near religious experiences, only to fully recant as soon as the direction of my route deviated from the path of weather pattern righteousness :laugh:
 

RecordAceFromNew

Swinging Member
Location
West London
Congratulations on reading a wiki page which confirms that rim weight is largely irrelevant - and then coming to precisely the opposite conclusion.. ;)

Please I think you are in danger of confusing the issues - I always and also think weight is not significant for most people for most purpose as indicated as recently as here. Regarding my point about our disagreement regarding rotating mass vis-a-vis mass see above.
 
Please I think you are in danger of confusing the issues - I always and also think weight is not significant for most people for most purpose as indicated as recently as here. Regarding my point about our disagreement regarding rotating mass vis-a-vis mass see above.

No - we specifically disagree on the issue of rotating mass.

There was a massive discussion on Bikeradar on this exact same topic last year - here's one of the posts which sets out the physics (and how it relates to cycling) pretty clearly...

Potential energy gained by climbing is very relevant – two identical riders of say 80kg (bike, kit and rider) gaining the same height have the same potential energy regardless of how the weight is distributed on their bikes. If we assume that they climb at the same speed, then they’ll have spent the same amount of energy moving air out of the way too.

Now, assuming that the law of conservation of energy holds for cycling as well as the rest of the observable universe (a stretch, I know):

Energy used = potential energy gained + energy used moving air out of the way + small rolling resistance (drivetrain, tyres etc)

Which is clearly the same for both. So if you’re climbing at a constant speed, it matters not where the weight is on your bike.

Now, for acceleration. Unless you are using your brakes on a climb, any energy you use accelerating a heavy rim will be returned in the form of slower deceleration. This is called the “conservation of momentum” and should have featured in your A-level in which you achieved a grade A. Now, if you start from rest and climb at say 12kmh, the lighter rims WILL save you some energy during this initial acceleration. And by “some”, I mean “really not very much at all in the grand scheme of things, about the same as a gnat tap-dancing for 2 minutes”. After that, its entirely* the same, because you’ll be travelling at a constant speed.

But wait – what if the gradient isn’t constant and you travel at different speeds for the same power output? Or you’re in a race and there are attacks and such? Lets say you’re travelling along a nice 5% section at 15kmh and happen upon a 10% section. Now, because the bike weight is the same, it takes no more energy to climb said wall due to total weight being equal – however the heavier rims have more energy stored so – wait for it - the heavier rims will release this energy as you decelerate and will actually get you to the top of the 10% bit ever so slightly sooner. I KNOW, RIGHT? However, once you get to the top of the 10% section it’ll take more energy to spin your rims back up to 15kmh. These effects will largely cancel each other out.

The only time when momentum is lost is when you use your brakes. A crit is the obvious example of something that requires constant accelerations and braking, but the wiki page calculates this and it turns out to be rather small. The other time it might be relevant is when Contador attacks and you’re scrabbling to accelerate onto his wheel and 2cm may well be the difference between winning the Tour or not – but I’m pretty sure that doesn’t apply to any of us on here FFS.

* As has been noted, because of dead spots in the pedal stroke you’ll actually be accelerating and decelerating constantly. Because of the conservation of momentum as outlined above, this is largely immaterial – but if we must cross the t’s, heavier rims will act like a flywheel and keep the speed ever so slightly more constant than lighter rims. Since air resistance varies as a function of speed SQUARED, lighter rims will actually take fractionally more energy to climb at a “constant” pace because during the power phase of the pedal stroke you’ll achieve a marginally higher speed. That said, I worked out the figure, multiplied it by the number of “what bike?” threads on BR and it was still less than the square root of bugger all.
 

02GF74

Über Member
As people have repeatedly said in this thread - there is no argument against lighter wheels - of course they make a difference, because they will make the bike lighter. The point that myself and others are making is that it makes no practical, discernible difference how the weight in a set of wheels is distributed.

I don't believe that. The inertia is greater when the weight is at the rim. If you have a bike, remoe one of the wheels, hold it by the axle. Give it a spin and see how easy or not it is to turn it (gyroscopic effect).

Now remove tyre - equivalent to a light rim and repeat.

Then come back and tell me there is no difference in the amount of effort required to turn the wheel.

If all cycling was done in a straight line, then it wouldn't make a difference but I am not aware of such competitions.
A cyclist has finite power to put into pushing a bike forwrads, any losses such as will go into changing direction can make all the difference at the top level competitions, as indeed disc wheels, deep section rims, flat bladed spokes, skins suits etc.

... back to the OP - I have a pair of carbon rims, not through choice but they came with the bike and the wheels are no lighter than a set of lightweight alloy rimmed wheels e.g. Mavic crossmax SLR/Roval SL. Dunno about the rim weight but at my level of cycling, I cannot say I benefi from the advantage, if there is any. They do look nice though.
 
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