Can Scotland copy the Netherlands?

[GrumpyGregry]

Can there be no middle ground on this segregation issue?
I don't want or believe segregation makes economic sense or would encourage cycling in my local town.
I do want segregation, on a well designed and maintained path, from a 70mph dual carriageway carrying a high volume of traffic and which is the only practical route on part of a journey I make fairly frequently.

In spirit I'm with you. In practise it is all about priorities, and the choices people make.

 

[HLaB]

Can there be no middle ground on this segregation issue?
I don't want or believe segregation makes economic sense or would encourage cycling in my local town.
I do want segregation, on a well designed and maintained path, from a 70mph dual carriageway carrying a high volume of traffic and which is the only practical route on part of a journey I make fairly frequently.

OT, LTN 1/12 opens the door to a lot of crap, substandard farcilities alongside busy rural roads; it basically says even a substandard path is better than no path if there is no reasonable alternative.

 

[Scoosh]

I see a difference also between urban cycling and its required infrastructure and rural cycling and its required infrastructure.

It's not too hard to see that, as snorri says above, having a separate, well constructed cycle path (not lane) detached from the fast-moving (main, dual carriageway) traffic is the safer option in less urban/ more rural areas. There is a (rare) good example of this beside the A91, from Edenside to St Andrews (both kilometres of it ) :


In the urban areas, there needs to be segregation if we are going to get young people and older returnees feeling safe on their bikes in our towns and cities.

It's obviously not a 'one size fits all' situation and there are so many limiting factors (cost !!!) that it will require careful planning and an active political will. Included in that political will is the recognition that driver re-education is important; we all have a 'right' to use the roads (with or without a licence , before the "we are traffic" brigade get too steamed up ); cyclists are not perfect either ; a bit of consideration, do-as-you-would-be-done-by etc etc; we can share the roads and all be safe .

I'm not having a go at anyone who has posted previously, I just want to get more people feeling safe(r) when out on their bikes, so more people cycling !

 

[snorri]

OT, LTN 1/12 opens the door to a lot of crap,

LTNs applicable only to South Britain.

 

[Pat "5mph"]

There's a big group between the assertives and that avoiders that can use the roads perfectly fine, *if the roads are tamed*. As many do in Oxford. Your assertion does not hold water.

We all need to start somewhere if not used to cycling in traffic since youth. Or, like in my case, never cycled at all before. On top of that, one here does not have "cycling examples" because so little people cycle.
I try to watch other cyclists on the road, what they do. Seems though if I act the same I end up getting beeped or shouted at. I am too slow (max 10/15 mph) to mix with fast flowing traffic.
Truly, if there had not been a way for me to cycle from home to work avoiding traffic (this meant using a pavement for a short stretch) I would have never started it.

I was looking into an alternative method to public transport transport into work - I don't have a car - a colleague made me consider a bike. He cycled, little did I know he lives only 5 minutes up the cycle path!
My commute is 5 miles, mostly parks and cycle path. I was terrified, still am at times, on the dual carriage way. I use all sorts of diversions to make my journey safer: keep buses/lorries in front, don't filter, cross on foot when the junction is too much for me to handle.
Still there are scary moments (I don't post about them in commuting, 'cause I'll rather not be reminded) but I have learned to live with this: the advantages of cycling outnumber the stress ... for now.

My friend (experienced cyclist btw) got run over a couple of weeks ago. She was left lying on the road. Driver gone, a passing pedestrian crossed away from her, didn't want involved.
She straightened her handlebars, carried on to work on her bike, hurt, wet, dirty.
We don't even have a shower, she had to clean up as best as she could.
If this happens to me I know I'll not stop cycling: I'll take to the pavement again

 

[snorri]

What can I say in response to the previous post?
Only, "I take my hat off to you Pat "5mph" "

 

[Pat "5mph"]

What can I say in response to the previous post?
Only, "I take my hat off to you Pat "5mph" "

Don't, it's too cold to do that!

 

[Richard Mann]

We all need to start somewhere if not used to cycling in traffic since youth. Or, like in my case, never cycled at all before. On top of that, one here does not have "cycling examples" because so little people cycle.
I try to watch other cyclists on the road, what they do. Seems though if I act the same I end up getting beeped or shouted at. I am too slow (max 10/15 mph) to mix with fast flowing traffic.
Truly, if there had not been a way for me to cycle from home to work avoiding traffic (this meant using a pavement for a short stretch) I would have never started it...

The in-between group (where most people start, if conditions permit, and most remain indefinitely), approach cycling in a "guarded" fashion. They keep to the left, they studiously avoid turning right unless traffic is going _very_ slowly. Roundabouts and gyratories are pretty much no-go zones. All ripe for a bit of training? Perhaps. But in practice most people can't be bothered with training.

This group is very sensitive to what might seem like fairly small changes to an assertive cyclist (and irrelevant to the avoiders): the provision of cycle lanes, slowing down main roads to 20-25mph, and the tightening or elimination of roundabouts / gyratories.

The reason why cycling has grown in Oxford, despite heavy competition from the buses, is that we have studiously ignored the views of assertive cyclists. Mostly of course because they are already outnumbered by the "guarded" cyclists. But regardless, we have stuck with providing painted cycle lanes, taming the traffic, removing gyratories and tightening roundabouts. Because it works.

And so: segregated paths are not the only solution. Which is perhaps just as well, since we don't have the clout to grab that much roadspace. Especially since it patently isn't necessary.

 

[HLaB]

LTNs applicable only to South Britain.

I would like that to be true but the DfTs remit is for the whole of the UK; just how Transport Scotland fits into it is a matter for later, I'm too knackered just now. The Scottish Government puts its name to some LTNs like 2/08 but I dont think they have to 1/12 so hopefully they are cherry picking the best ones

 

[HLaB]

LTNs applicable only to South Britain.

Sugar A quick google and Cycling Scotland have took it on board.

 

[snorri]

Sugar A quick google and Cycling Scotland have took it on board.

Oh, sorry!
Transport Scotland ignore their own guidelines and all the others relating to cycling as well as far as i can see.

 

[Scoosh]

Oh, sorry!
Transport Scotland ignore their own guidelines and all the others relating to cycling as well as far as i can see.

I suspect they sign up to these things so they can look good and can claim how much they are doing for sustainable transport/ the environment/ nation's health/ cyclists etc etc - but I doubt their heart** is really in it.

[** where heart = real money]

 

[threebikesmcginty]

Get some clogs and smoke dope, sorted.

 

[HJ]

If we want change in Scotland we have to fight for it, write to your MSPs tell them that you want to see a sustainable safety approach, tell them that you want them to support the Strict Liability private members bill (when it is introduced in the next term of the Parliament), turn up outside Holyrood on the 2nd September and join the protest against the Nice Way Code. The Dutch didn't get their cycling infrastructure by being nice, they fought for it, with big protests (like Pedal on Parliament) and die ins etc

 

[byegad]

It's easily sorted. Just elect a government that is prepared to spend €30 per head of population on cycling year-in-and-year-out for a period of about 30 years and you'll be sorted.

Good luck with finding a party prepared to put that in their manifesto.

Well Alex Trout* or whatever his name is, will happily spend that while your're still part of the UK, but don't hold your breath after you leave.

* May have got this wrong, but I know he has a fishy something.