Caliper arm flex... How much is normal? No stopping power!

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jack smith

Veteran
Location
Durham
Ive got tektro brakes on my s works tarmac, 15 quid a pair and they stop me who is 16 stone just fine the pads they came with are alright but not the ebst but a nice set or clsrks pads and i stop really fast, they dont seem great on downhills though but im sure thats cause ove went back to unbranded pads
 

John the Monkey

Frivolous Cyclist
Location
Crewe
Ive got tektro brakes on my s works tarmac, 15 quid a pair and they stop me who is 16 stone just fine the pads they came with are alright but not the ebst but a nice set or clsrks pads and i stop really fast, they dont seem great on downhills though but im sure thats cause ove went back to unbranded pads
It's possible they're higher up the quality heirarchy than the ones that came on my SCR2 - but honestly, the difference between Ultegra and the Tektros I had was marked, to say the (very) least.
 
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drissa

drissa

Regular
I chatted to someone in a local shop, who suggested it could be a mismatched lever/brake. I'm using slightly unusual Dia Compe 139 levers, so might be worth trying with something else. However, the flex is in the caliper arm before the lever comes close to the bar, so I'm not sure how the lever would affect. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks all for input.
 

AndyRM

XOXO
Location
North Shields
I chatted to someone in a local shop, who suggested it could be a mismatched lever/brake. I'm using slightly unusual Dia Compe 139 levers, so might be worth trying with something else. However, the flex is in the caliper arm before the lever comes close to the bar, so I'm not sure how the lever would affect. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks all for input.

That could have something to do with it. If you're not able to pull the cable far enough to get good grip, maybe they don't match? Might be worth a picture of your setup as I can't visualise what you mean about the bar.

I use 105 shifters with no problems.
 
I chatted to someone in a local shop, who suggested it could be a mismatched lever/brake. I'm using slightly unusual Dia Compe 139 levers, so might be worth trying with something else. However, the flex is in the caliper arm before the lever comes close to the bar, so I'm not sure how the lever would affect. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks all for input.
I don't buy that one. Provided the lever is not bottoming on the bar when you've got the brake full on there's no problem with so called "Mismatching".
 

theclaud

Openly Marxist
Location
Swansea
I got my first road bike frame out of a skip. There were Weinmann brakes still attached, so I kept them and just assumed that road bikes were not supposed to stop properly compared to mtbs, and that one must therefore either be completely fearless or ride like a big wuss.Then I got some Shimano brakes and realized that the answer was simpler than that - the other ones were just rubbish.
 

John the Monkey

Frivolous Cyclist
Location
Crewe
I got my first road bike frame out of a skip. There were Weinmann brakes still attached, so I kept them and just assumed that road bikes were not supposed to stop properly compared to mtbs, and that one must therefore either be completely fearless or ride like a big wuss.Then I got some Shimano brakes and realized that the answer was simpler than that - the other ones were just rubbish.
My first bike had those Weinmann single pivots, and steel rims.

It was terrifying. I wore out shoes quicker than I wore out brake blocks, from slamming my feet down on the tarmac in a desperate attempt to stop.
 

RecordAceFromNew

Swinging Member
Location
West London

Your problem has nothing to do with the brake caliper arms flexing.

I think the issue is primarily due to your levers, not helped by the way you pull them, and not helped by using them with long drop brakes either.

The issue is mechanical advantage (MA). A typical V brake system has lever MA of around 2, and brake MA of a little over 3, combining to 2x3=6. That is for every 20mm of pull at the lever the pads move together by c3.3mm. This also meant that the pads are squeezing the rim with around 6 times as much force as your hand exerts on the lever. You can check component MA by comparing how much the lever, the inner cable and the pads move in relation to each other.

A typical long drop caliper has MA of around 1.3. With your Dia compe 139, by looking at the position of its pivot, I figure it has an MA of just over 3 if you pull the levers near the end (see first pic below), but where you pull them in your video, you are probably getting lever MA of 1.5 (see second pic below), so you are getting a combined MA of 1.3x1.5=2. You are therefore squeezing the pads on the rim with not that much more force than you would have if you were only gripping the rims... :whistle:

Obviously changing the calipers would make little difference. But better pads and changing how you pull the levers should. Also I believe most "flex" in a cable brake system is in the compression of the coiled cable outer. If your levers bottom out on to the bars, less compressible outers will help.

Does anybody really think their hands can pull hard enough to meaningfully bend/flex short brake caliper arms 5+mm thick in forged alloy? Imho better brakes may have less play at the pivots, better finish, better pads etc., but more arm "flex"? No, I don't think so.

dia-compe-dc139-black.jpg


dia-compe-dc139-black4.jpg
 
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drissa

drissa

Regular
Interesting, thanks. I can see how using the end of the levers gives the same force for less effort. Although, if I'm understanding properly, the increased MA from a different lever or grip position wouldn't help braking if the force is being absorbed by a flexing caliper arm, rather than being transferred into the pads?

I'll try different levers. I'll also consider wearing Shimano branded underpants, which sounds like it will resolve all life's problems.
 

Tim Hall

Guest
Location
Crawley
Do brake pads compress to any significant degree? If so do some brands compress less than others?

Such compression would give the same effect - calliper arms moving when everything else is supposedly fixed.
 

RecordAceFromNew

Swinging Member
Location
West London
Although, if I'm understanding properly, the increased MA from a different lever or grip position wouldn't help braking if the force is being absorbed by a flexing caliper arm, rather than being transferred into the pads?

I don't think that is right. An action must be balanced by a reaction, so if we visualise a flexible arm/cable/hanger/pad as a simple spring, irrespective of the stiffness of the spring all else being equal the force on the other end of the spring should not be affected by the stiffness of the spring.

What a weak spring in the system will do, is to cause your lever to bottom out at the bars before you can exert the same force on the lever/rim. I think flex in the brake caliper arms is seldom if ever the chief culprit of that being allowed to happen.

You can test my proposition, perhaps, by watching how much farther you can pull the lever after the pads have just made contact with the rim. It will be quite a lot, and I believe mostly due to cable outer compression, usually.

Do brake pads compress to any significant degree? If so do some brands compress less than others?

Such compression would give the same effect - calliper arms moving when everything else is supposedly fixed.

Indeed everything in the brake system flex/compress, to a certain degree. In fact this is what gives a brake system modulation - if you have a brake system where everything is rock hard and incompressible then the brake will act like an on-off switch, not exactly what one wants. The other extreme is allowing lever bottoming out at the bars, also not what one wants either. What one wants is a progressive application of braking force as you pull the levers, with the levers never bottoming out even as you pull as hard as you can - this is achieved by a balance of system compressibility and system MA.

If system MA is too large, a lot of travel at the lever will deliver only a tiny amount of movement at the pads - so while the rim may be gripped by a powerful force the system is not fault tolerant in terms of wheel trueness, pad wear and cabling compressibility, your lever will bottom out easily before the pads can do their work.

If the system MA is too small, your levers are unlikely to bottom out, but you can pull as hard on the levers as you like and the force of the pads on the rim will still be puny, due to inadequate leverage of the force your hand applies to the lever.

I don't know about bending brake callipers, but I had one bike where I could flex the seat stays by applying the brakes hard!

As I mentioned above every action must be balanced by a reaction. If you have a powerful V brake with bosses on long thin seat stays then the stays will have to resist the force on the pads, exerted at ~6x how hard you can pull the levers. The longer the distance between the brake bosses and seat stay end supports, the more flex of the stays at the bosses will be, since the deflection of a simple cantilever is proportional to the cube of the distance to its end supports.
 
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