Beware distressing pics

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Its not an unreasonable expectation that in a first world country where we pay some of the highest taxes in the world that the roads will be maintained in a safe state.

Problem is a lot of the most influential and powerful people making UK decisions or influencing others - don't actually live in the UK. They use the uk as a sweatshop - so long as the profit margins are high, and tax is low - a shoddy nhs, and poor roads they care not - they just blame immigrants and asylum seekers ...
 
I have to say that recent travels in Buckinghamshire horrified me with the poor road conditions. Thought it was bad enough in West Devon, but was an order of magnitude worse there.
 

T4tomo

Legendary Member
Underinvestment, pah!

Motor vehicles keep getting heavier, so doing more damage to roads and they're not being taxed enough more to cover it.

It ain't underinvestment.
i haven't got the exact numbers.to hand, but the amount raised from road, vehicle and fuel taxes / duty exceed road spending by a significant multiple.

under investment is a significant factor.
 

Bonefish Blues

Banging donk
Location
52 Festive Road
I have to say that recent travels in Buckinghamshire horrified me with the poor road conditions. Thought it was bad enough in West Devon, but was an order of magnitude worse there.
I live on the Oxon/Bucks border and I think Bucks just shades it for awfulness. The largest we measured was 3ft x 18" x 9" deep - and that was in that condition for 2 weeks before it was filled...
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
i haven't got the exact numbers.to hand, but the amount raised from road, vehicle and fuel taxes / duty exceed road spending by a significant multiple.
Cute. Only road spending, not all motoring spend then? No replacing the public assets destroyed by motorists who hit-and-run? Nothing towards ambulances picking up the pieces after crashes? No contribution for roads policing? Not even cleaning the exhaust particulates and brake dust off historic buildings?

When you do a more reasonable assessment and try to include at least some of the costs like that, you realise costs probably exceed taxation by over 20% which is part of why more motoring means worse roads: the nation is making a thumping loss on motoring and every extra mile hurts more. I think the Cabinet Office did a slightly more balanced assessment back in 2009 and subsequent governments haven't dared repeat it on the same terms. Other assessments by bodies including DEFRA, the SDC and the Campaign for Better Transport estimate it's far higher (although the CBT has an agenda... the other two less so), especially on marginal costs.

Basically, the main groups who still claim motoring is currently profitable for the country are motoring ones like the RAC.

under investment is a significant factor.
Huh? Do you think we could build even more expensive roads that wouldn't require repairs? I feel that's grasping at straws to discourage us from restricting these damaging vehicles further.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
I live on the Oxon/Bucks border and I think Bucks just shades it for awfulness. The largest we measured was 3ft x 18" x 9" deep - and that was in that condition for 2 weeks before it was filled...
Only 2 weeks? The metre deep hole in a cycleway (almost certainly caused by motorists frequently driving with two wheels on that section) that I reported back in January and was told would be repaired last Thursday is still there this afternoon. And this when various policies say cycling is to be promoted and given priority because of all the benefits it brings. Motorists have got it cushy because they destroy things and cost more when they sue councils for repairs to cars damaged by potholes.
 

Bonefish Blues

Banging donk
Location
52 Festive Road
Only 2 weeks? The metre deep hole in a cycleway (almost certainly caused by motorists frequently driving with two wheels on that section) that I reported back in January and was told would be repaired last Thursday is still there this afternoon. And this when various policies say cycling is to be promoted and given priority because of all the benefits it brings. Motorists have got it cushy because they destroy things and cost more when they sue councils for repairs to cars damaged by potholes.
You found a hole a metre deep on a cycleway and it's still there 4 months later? Remarkable.
 

screenman

Legendary Member
Let's also blame sat navs. LGVs that were confined largely to main roads now find themselves on all sorts of small roads because of the ubiquitous t**t nav.

We have a couple of very large distribution places just outside the village, the roads are not coping well.
 

Skibird

Senior Member
I moved from Bucks to the IOW but go back frequently, it still horrifies me to see the state of some of the roads, which just seem to be getting worse and worse with no repairs is sight.
 

Johnno260

Veteran
Location
East Sussex
Put simply, least-cost methods are clearly being used, and freeze-thaw has had a field day over this last winter as a result. I can only imagine the levels of claims at the moment.

Thing is least "cost methods" to me seems false economy, as the repairs (bodge) doesn't last so the same thing is repaired multiple times.

I witnessed an argument between a motorist and a road repair contractor, they had filled some holes, but left the largest hole as it wasn't marked with spray paint, it was bang in between the smaller holes.

The council are allowing themselves to be ripped off by contractors as they end up going out to the same location many times, it should be a contract to repair holes on a certain stretch of road, again it ends up wasting tax payers money.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
The council are allowing themselves to be ripped off by contractors as they end up going out to the same location many times, it should be a contract to repair holes on a certain stretch of road, again it ends up wasting tax payers money.
I agree they/we are being ripped off but it might not be as direct as that.

I think some (most?) of the contracts are actually to repair holes on certain stretches of road for a given period of time. So the current contractor only needs the repairs to last until the contract is up for renewal which I think is rarely longer than a few years, whereas (edit: if I remember correctly what I was told at a briefing about 10 years ago) an average C/U-class new road is expected to last 9 years and surface-dressing done correctly should extend that by 4 or 5 more, possibly twice... so in other words, even the best council probably won't be able to tell whether most surface dressing was done by the book until after the contract's been re-let - unless they were actually out watching the work being done which no council has enough officers to do any more - so there's basically no financial incentive for the contractor to do the job properly.

Still with me? Then the flip side is that when the contract is being re-let, the current number of repairs of each type in the past N periods is disclosed to the bidders, so doing a crap job (as long as you don't get found out) means more repairs and more severe types are needed, so the contractor and its peers can charge more next time. One way to avoid this would be longer contracts and then you might only get shoot work in the last few years of it, but few councils have that sort of financial stability any more and the council needs to be really sure it can terminate a contract that stops working well for it or fire a rubbish contractor if they start cutting corners early and they discover it... aaaand few councillors look beyond the next election or two anyway, so might commit their council to a good-now-but-rubbish-later long-term deal if they could anyway!

I'm sure it doesn't always work as badly as I outline but it seems such an obvious failure pattern in contracted-out road maintenance that I expect its inventors are patting themselves on the back with both hands: trebles all round!
 
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Bonefish Blues

Banging donk
Location
52 Festive Road
Some facts on Oxfordshire roads, given I have just come back from a meeting where a County Councillor addressed the issue.

Current estimate of cost to rectify Oxon roads £150m. Current annual budget £68m. Additional funds made available in this F/yr £3.8m. The severity of the winter has resulted in c3x more potholes than an average winter.
 
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