Best way to deal with bad driving?

[Dan B]

You run lights, weave through traffic like you own the road.

I don't run lights, but you are correct that I own the road. It's a much better deal than owning the underside of a bridge

 

[ianrauk]

You ride 2 or 3 next to each other, so cars can't pass you

1: You are not breaking any laws in the UK by riding 2 abreast.
2: Cars can pass at my convenience and for my safety, not the other way round.

 

[davidphilips]

So I didn't know why you kept toting on about yellow jackets, so I watched some videos of cyclists in London. I realize this may not go over so well, but you guys don't think there's any issues with your cycling habits there at all? Quite honestly, I'm surprised you don't get hit more often.

Call me crazy, but I recognize the fact that a car can kill me, just like when I drive I recognize that a huge truck can smash me to pieces too, and I cycle defensively, aware of that, doing my best to avoid cars.

You all cut cars off everywhere and give them the finger if they call you on it. You ride 2 or 3 next to each other, so cars can't pass you. You run lights, weave through traffic like you own the road. I've never seen anything like it before.

Maybe this isn't everywhere in England, but it seemed to be pretty common in London.

And yes, I did see cyclists wearing bright yellow, mainly at night, and officers wearing it during the day. But let's just say hi vis won't protect a cyclist from getting hit and killed, who completely disregards the laws of physics and traffic lights too.

Lost me there? Sorry dont get this at all this thread is about how cyclists can deal with bad driving, have to agree with you that there are some bad cyclists but most if not all on CycleChat take cycling seriously, so to say that (You all cut cars off everywhere and give them the finger) that is just not true or indeed in any way the accepted good cycling of most.
Same as there are some great car drivers and most cyclists are also car drivers but the problem comes with drivers that are so inconsiderate that they put cyclists lives in mortal danger.

As for riding 2 or 3 next to each other well 3 is not good but nothing wrong with 2 abreast conditions allowing may i ask are you even a cyclist?

 

[Dan B]

:

• strengthened road policing with a return to greater number of officers on patrol;
• strict application of the 12-point totting up disqualfication process;
• removal of the exceptional hardship clause;
• mandatory retesting of all drivers who seek return of their licence after disqualification.

The first one (enforcement) is the most important. To get behavioural change, the certain consequence of a "minor" penalty is much more effective than the small risk of a draconian one.

Martin Porter has some good thoughts on the matter: http://thecyclingsilk.blogspot.co.uk/2016/12/the-governments-proposals-on-sentencing.html

 

[youngoldbloke]

Studies like http://eprints.nottingham.ac.uk/12855/ and the failure of the fluctuations in hi-vis cycle clothing sales to correlate with any measures of cycling casualties. You know, science.

Also, I think you'd need to be a special sort of crazy to wear yellow and go cycling among all the yellow crops we grow around here.

I can't make it "more possible for me to be seen". We can all be seen. We're all visible. Except maybe the invisible man. Any motorist claiming otherwise is probably trying to distract from a mistake.

However, dressing as an alien space lemon has other drawbacks, making cycling seen as something that involves special clothes and making cyclists seen as unusual abnormal people. This means people are less likely to think of cycling as something they could or should do.

Edited to add: oh and it uglies up landscapes and people's photographs, which is a bit unwelcome in a tourist area.

Mostly agree - so wouldn't you also
need to be a special sort of crazy to wear Black and go cycling among all the Blackness we have at night in the country around here.
Surely the point is CONTRAST. Likewise unwise to wear white if you want to be seen in snow. Like some others I also find I am often able to see riders wearing lighter or reflective clothing earlier when driving at night on country roads.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

The first one (enforcement) is the most important.

That's why it's top of my list.

To get behavioural change, the certain consequence of a "minor" penalty is much more effective than the small risk of a draconian one.

Indeed. This can be seen in the continued prevalence of people driving while using a hand-held phone, despite the penalty having been doubled.

 

[glasgowcyclist]

Mostly agree - so wouldn't you also
need to be a special sort of crazy to wear Black and go cycling among all the Blackness we have at night in the country around here.
Surely the point is CONTRAST. Likewise unwise to wear white if you want to be seen in snow. Like some others I also find I am often able to see riders wearing lighter or reflective clothing earlier when driving at night on country roads.

Well I've got lights for that so how I dress is still irrelevant but we're straying away from the topic. Again.

 

[mjr]

1: You are not breaking any laws in the UK by riding 2 abreast.

Not breaking any laws by riding 5 abreast, which I've done. It's discouraged by the highway code but it happens almost inevitably for short stretches in towns and mostly cities where enough people cycle to shoal at traffic lights and so in. It still doesn't excuse bad driving.

 

[mjr]

So I didn't know why you kept toting on about yellow jackets, so I watched some videos of cyclists in London. I realize this may not go over so well, but you guys don't think there's any issues with your cycling habits there at all? Quite honestly, I'm surprised you don't get hit more often.

Sure there are issues and I do include cycle training as something that would help - but remember that the videos that get put online are mostly stuff that is exceptional or remarkable in some way and often that's bad cycling or bad motoring. Maybe you could look at the videos posted of cyclists in your capital city and see if that seems a fair representation of how you cycle?

And anyway, does someone who makes a mistake while cycling deserve the death penalty?

Call me crazy, but I recognize the fact that a car can kill me, just like when I drive I recognize that a huge truck can smash me to pieces too, and I cycle defensively, aware of that, doing my best to avoid cars.

And no-one has a problem with any of that. It's just the naïve and mistaken belief that the emperor's new cycling jacket will do anything to stop them and so such victim-blaming unnecessary expensive fashion statements should be promoted to other cyclists.

You all cut cars off everywhere and give them the finger if they call you on it.

YYSW, like all Yankees are fat and don't have passports.

You ride 2 or 3 next to each other, so cars can't pass you. You run lights, weave through traffic like you own the road. I've never seen anything like it before.

Ye gods! You're going to cough up your skull when you discover videos of cycling in the Netherlands!

 

[confusedcyclist]

I do get more room, like I said, I definitely get a wider gerth...

Seriously, stop with the anecdotal evidence. Would you be pleased if you went to your doctor with a persistent cough, and he said to you he notices a reduction in coughs in patients who recently had a circumcision. Would you sign up for one? No of course not. You would want evidence based practice of treatments based on sound statistics and scientific process, not gut based observations which confuse correlation and causation and ineffectual findings of focus groups. The research already exists, and high-viz and reflectives do not stop bad driving.

Back on topic;

For offenses involving vulnerable road users, bad drivers should be fined, sent on driver awareness courses with a theme around sharing the road. There is precedent with speeding, failure to drive with due care around others should be no different, the course can easily be paid for with income from fines, some also being set aside to fund future enforcement. If offences are repeated,larger fine, instant 4 points and or a ban, length of which should depend on seriousness of the offence, and definitely no hardship exceptions. Those are laughable, does a victim get an exception when their life is destroyed by incompetent drivers? No.

 

[jefmcg]

I definitely get a wider gerth

You can call me vain, but I am not going to choose cycling clothing that increases my girth.

 

[vickster]

You can call me vain, but I am not going to choose cycling clothing that increases my girth.

Ah but you're not a man

 

[nicasiri]

As for riding 2 or 3 next to each other well 3 is not good but nothing wrong with 2 abreast conditions allowing may i ask are you even a cyclist?

The problem is when you refuse to move into single and let a car pass. Yeah, you have to share the road. You and the cars there both seem to think you own it, and personally I think you're making things worse for yourself in this all out war you seem to have created. From what I saw on many videos, cyclists in London are pretty reckless (as are your drivers), and like I said, the cyclists regularly weave in and out of cars, ride the wrong way on roads, run traffic lights regularly, shoot the finger to drivers, when they're actually in the wrong.

Of course, that's not everyone. But THE PROBLEM IS IT AFFECTS ALL OF YOU. It seems to be a relatively large issue, at least in London.

Not sure why so many cyclists refuse to ride on the bikeways that were built there either. I saw one video where a police officer told a group of cyclists they should get on the bike path and they refused to do so. They mouthed off to the officer, who was attempting to help them. The bikeway was right there. So yeah, I don't get it...

 

[nicasiri]

Sure there are issues and I do include cycle training as something that would help - but remember that the videos that get put online are mostly stuff that is exceptional or remarkable in some way and often that's bad cycling or bad motoring. Maybe you could look at the videos posted of cyclists in your capital city and see if that seems a fair representation of how you cycle?

I have. But there aren't nearly as many as the ones in London. I saw cyclists attacking motor bikers, picking fights with them, swarming around them like sharks. And then some mistakenly hitting motor bikers too and knocking the motor bikers down because the cyclists themselves weren't paying attention. I'm not saying it's everyone, but really, it looks to me like you have some serious issues going on there with your own cyclists refusing to practice better bike safety, and it seems to be quite a big problem.

I slow down at intersections, because I'm aware there are bad drivers. A lot of cyclists in London don't. You're right, you're a vehicle, a car should give you the right away. Doesn't mean they will. I also slow down a bit through intersections and look both ways when driving. Why? Because there are a lot of sh**ty drivers on the road. It's just a fact. Call it survival instincts, whatever you wish.

And anyway, does someone who makes a mistake while cycling deserve the death penalty?

Well this is kind of a ridiculous question. I'm not saying anyone deserves the death penalty, but the truth is if a driver makes a mistake while driving, they could end up dead via another car. Or some other obstruction. So of course you have to cycle defensively.

There are a lot of you on the road. I think, personally, you've escalated an all-out war with drivers over there, and there appears to a real massive hatred on both sides. Much more than in other places. I'm not saying one side is all right or another is all wrong. But it's not helping your problems either. Yeah, now it appears drivers don't really give two sh***ts if they hit you. You've got a real problem on your hands, and from what I saw, educating cyclists seems to me, as if it might help a bit as well.

It's just the naïve and mistaken belief that the emperor's new cycling jacket will do anything to stop them and so such victim-blaming unnecessary expensive fashion statements should be promoted to other cyclists.

Well I mentioned a few other things that might help too...

 

[mjr]

I like cycle tracks, but there's plenty I won't ride because I'd need an operation to fetch my saddle back out.

Maybe we should require all motorists to stick to motorways, to stop their bad driving affecting others? After all, we've built those motorways at massive expense and now many motorists still don't use them. Why aren't the police telling them to get on the motorways instead?