Be prepared for an accident

[markemark]

Yeah
Thing is - it might only be of any use in a small percentage of collisions
but if you wake up in hospital and find you were unlucky enough to have had just that kind of collision then the fact that you were statistically right to not wear it
won't be a lot of comfort

Of course, that sort of logic tends towards an attitude of "I'm only going outside the 4 walls of my house in my tank"
which doesn't help a lot

The problem is in the bit you quoted - " It makes me feel a bit safer" One of the issues with wearing a helmet is risk compensation - people feeling safer wearing something that in reality only helps a little bit in certain situations. The problem is people feeling safer tend to take more risks.
A simple question is asking people how they would ride on a busy roundabout without a helmet. The answer is usually....very carefully. The following point is that the helmet will unlikely help them in a collision with a heavy vehicle but they just admitted they ride less carefully wearing a helmet.

Add to that drivers giving you more space when you are without a helmet and the added risk or neck rotational problems with your head suddenly twice the size. The argument of...in can only help...is not quite true. In all likelihood, helmets make you slightly more likely to be knocked off, you are then slightly more likely for your hear (with helmet) to hit the ground. Both of these combined cause problems which somewhat offset the help they can give in certain situations. It's hard to know exactly as it would need large scale studies but anecdotally, countries with enforced helmets do not show a significant reduction of head injury rates so the 'somewhat' is probably about right.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Of course, that sort of logic tends towards an attitude of "I'm only going outside the 4 walls of my house in my tank"
which doesn't help a lot

Exactly.

 

[classic33]

But if you get hit, or suffer a near miss, the question of Hi-Vis not being worn is going to be the first thing that'll be mentioned, followed by lights not being used. Helmet usage will thrown in afterwards.

How many use lights in bright sunshine, or use Hi-Vis? Hi-Vis can work, in certain circumstances, but its usage is becoming more widespread often rendering it useless because it's everywhere.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

I notice that those flippin' doctors are at it again:

What is it about Neurosurgeons and their obsession with protecting people's heads? What do they know about the relationship of head injuries to wearing helmets? I've heard that it's the same as panel beaters not knowing anything about car crashes.

The cases that Neurosurgeons see involving cycling and all the ones where a helmet might have helped
at least to some extent

and plus some others

but - basically - their view of the situation is biased as they see a load of cycling injuries and a very hight percentage of them are ones in which a helmet did - or would have - helped

What they don't experience if the incidents where someone breaks an arm or leg or some ribs
etc etc

becuase those people don;t go to a neurosurgeon
and no doctor sees the ones where there are just some cuts and bruises


so you need to look at the whole picture nad not take evidence from people who have a lot of experience of 1% of the problem

 

[Alex321]

What's your criteria for that - a campaign that actually results in compulsion?

No, it is a campaign which has a significant amount of support, rather than just one or two publicity seeking MPS putting forth Private Members Bills with no chance of success.

 

[icowden]

What they don't experience if the incidents where someone breaks an arm or leg or some ribs

Arms, legs and ribs can be fixed pretty easily. Brains not so much. I'd rather wear a helmet if it were going to prevent a brain injury, even if it was going to break my leg.

and no doctor sees the ones where there are just some cuts and bruises

And those cases are not of interest when considering helmet protection either. You protect the most vulnerable and least repairable bit.
Brain injuries are not nice and are often fatal.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Arms, legs and ribs can be fixed pretty easily. Brains not so much. I'd rather wear a helmet if it were going to prevent a brain injury, even if it was going to break my leg.


And those cases are not of interest when considering helmet protection either. You protect the most vulnerable and least repairable bit.
Brain injuries are not nice and are often fatal.

True - which is one reason why I wear a helmet


Other thing is that brain injuries are sometime not fatal - but could be said to be worse in some ways

 

[Andy in Germany]

And those cases are not of interest when considering helmet protection either. You protect the most vulnerable and least repairable bit.
Brain injuries are not nice and are often fatal.

All true. However, evidence that helmets reduce these injuries has not yet been presented. Equally, evidence that cyclists are unusually vulnerable to head/brain injuries compared to other groups, and therefore need to take extra precautions, has not yet been presented.

Both of these point need to be shown, otherwise it's an argument about which makes the most compelling story, no matter who is telling it.

 

[Andy in Germany]

All true. However, evidence that helmets reduce these injuries has not yet been presented.

Sloppy communication there: I meant to say that conclusive evidence has not been presented.

 

[MontyVeda]

... You protect the most vulnerable and least repairable bit.
...

But only when riding a bike. The rest of the time you're happy to just take your chances.

 

[icowden]

All true. However, evidence that helmets reduce these injuries has not yet been presented. Equally, evidence that cyclists are unusually vulnerable to head/brain injuries compared to other groups, and therefore need to take extra precautions, has not yet been presented.
Both of these point need to be shown, otherwise it's an argument about which makes the most compelling story, no matter who is telling it.

Which is why I made the point that it seems odd that all of the medical research I have seen suggest that helmets improve outcomes. None has yet found otherwise, and doctors - including neurosurgeons all seem to think that they are a good idea.

Why do you think that is? Are they all in the pay of big helmet? I think we should be told..

 

[markemark]

Indeed. Two people in a pub. One has 4 pints. One has juice. The one after 4 pints walks home. The sober one cycles home. Which one is more at risk of a head injury? The one who has been drinking. Which one should wear the helmet on the way home?

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

But only when riding a bike. The rest of the time you're happy to just take your chances.

Not really a valid point
Yes - I agree that it is likely that walkers - and especially car drivers - would also benefit from wearing a helmet - based on research I have seen

but if will help cyclists then that is a valid thing to do
and if pedestrians are more resistant then that is a different point and does not invalidate cyclist being encouraged to wear them

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

All true. However, evidence that helmets reduce these injuries has not yet been presented. Equally, evidence that cyclists are unusually vulnerable to head/brain injuries compared to other groups, and therefore need to take extra precautions, has not yet been presented.

Both of these point need to be shown, otherwise it's an argument about which makes the most compelling story, no matter who is telling it.

evidence - and conclusive - evidence has been presented
In particular neurosurgeons have shown specific cases where injury has been caused that, in their expert opinion, would have been much less serious if a helmet had been worn
and cases where a helmet prevented much worse injury

what has not been put together in a conclusive manner is numbers.
A Neurosurgeon showing 20 case where a helmet was a good idea is not a good argument unless those 20 can be properly extrapolated into the population as a whole

AND - even if you can show that it is conclusively a good idea
then the argument involving people giving up (or not starting) cycling because they don;t want to wear a helmet has to be taken into account

and also -the argument about how on Earth you enforce it when everyone has seen people riding around on "things referred to as ebike in the press" at silly speeds - and the Police don;t seem to be capable of doing anything about it


so - overall - there is evidence
but otehr things over ride the relevance

 

[Andy in Germany]

Which is why I made the point that it seems odd that all of the medical research I have seen suggest that helmets improve outcomes. None has yet found otherwise, and doctors - including neurosurgeons all seem to think that they are a good idea.

Why do you think that is? Are they all in the pay of big helmet? I think we should be told..

If the links you posted represent all the research you've seen, then as I said, it's pretty inconclusive, to put it politely.

Neurosurgeons can have opinions like anyone else, but until conclusive evidence is presented, it's still a discussion on who has the most compelling story.