sevenfourate
Devotee of OCD
- Location
- Lowestoft, Suffolk
Just become a parent ?
A shared Bank account comes as standard.
A shared Bank account comes as standard.
Bank Account for Multiple Users??
- Thread starter PaulSB
- Start date
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bikingdad90
Guru
Would you consider a serviced accommodation arrangement whereby all the bills are taken care of by the landlord and then it is recovered by them via a service or amenity charge in addition to the rent?
OP
OP
PaulSB
Squire
- Location
- Chorley, Lancashire
Well thank you all. I've just re-read each post and have a list of 13 points or ideas I hadn't considered.
We have a meeting with the house manager and other parents on Wednesday. I'm hoping to have some good info for everyone by then. The two major hurdles we face are this. One family we only know casually as their son has been at the house for less than a year. The other parent is widowed, has other major family issues to deal with and after signing over financial responsibility for her son to the care provider more than 20 years ago suddenly finds it all dumped back in her lap.
The care provider used to act as appointee for the clients but is now relinquishing that role as well. This means the lady concerned, in her early 70s, now has to begin negotiating our complex social care funding.
I've always refused to relinquish control of my son's finances to anyone outside the family.
I'll report back when we have a solution. Don't hold your collective breath.
We have a meeting with the house manager and other parents on Wednesday. I'm hoping to have some good info for everyone by then. The two major hurdles we face are this. One family we only know casually as their son has been at the house for less than a year. The other parent is widowed, has other major family issues to deal with and after signing over financial responsibility for her son to the care provider more than 20 years ago suddenly finds it all dumped back in her lap.
The care provider used to act as appointee for the clients but is now relinquishing that role as well. This means the lady concerned, in her early 70s, now has to begin negotiating our complex social care funding.
I've always refused to relinquish control of my son's finances to anyone outside the family.
I'll report back when we have a solution. Don't hold your collective breath.
Make sure that your care manager from social services is aware of the meeting and is invited. I don't see how the care provider can pass back responsibility to the elderly parent. There could be a scenario where the client has no parents, so there must be an alternative option.
I am 74 and my OH is 70 and we still act as the appointees. There are issues that we need to resolve for the future, but we are fortunate that we have two other daughters and a son, who are all capable of taking over.
One consideration for the OP about such a shared account is security. I have no idea about who would be involved, etc. but given how common SCAM attempts have become these days, whilst with your own accounts you can take responsibility for your money, when a number of others also have full access to the account the possibility of one of them becoming victim to a SCAM attempt become much higher. OP knows the other parties involved and thus have a feeling for the risk.
Multiple people with full access must increase the risks of a SCAM getting all the money in the account (the degree of risk increase depends on those individuals). But another aspect is looking at the "risk vs consequences" ie put £100,000 in the account and whilst the risk might be low the concequences are very high whereas maintain an account balance of 10p and whatever the risk, should one member of the group be SCAMed then you wont be losing much (low consequences).
Only OP can form an opinion of the risks from the other full access signatories and have a feeling for the minimum balance needed for the scheme to work. But I think these are important and need considering.
If OP considers risk and/or consequences high maybe there are alternatives that could limit the risk?
Ian
Multiple people with full access must increase the risks of a SCAM getting all the money in the account (the degree of risk increase depends on those individuals). But another aspect is looking at the "risk vs consequences" ie put £100,000 in the account and whilst the risk might be low the concequences are very high whereas maintain an account balance of 10p and whatever the risk, should one member of the group be SCAMed then you wont be losing much (low consequences).
Only OP can form an opinion of the risks from the other full access signatories and have a feeling for the minimum balance needed for the scheme to work. But I think these are important and need considering.
If OP considers risk and/or consequences high maybe there are alternatives that could limit the risk?
Ian
craigwend
Grimpeur des terrains plats
OP
OP
PaulSB
Squire
- Location
- Chorley, Lancashire
That looks interesting. Thank you.
OP
OP
PaulSB
Squire
- Location
- Chorley, Lancashire
I'm not aware of there being a care manager from social services. May I ask why inviting him/her is important? This is about how household bills are paid. I wouldn't expect social services to be very interested in this.
The care provider has advised current, new, best practice is care providers should not have any financial responsibility for clients. This the basis for stepping back from being the appointee and managing household accounts.
As an alternative to parents, family etc. the care provider is directing relatives, usually parents, towards a company, name escapes me, who will act as the appointee. Unsurprisingly there is a monthly fee involved.
As an aside I regard companies offering a service such as this as leeches, preying on the disadvantaged.
Fortunately I have two sons who can become appointee when needed. My wife has terminal cancer and one realisation I've had is I need to get everything relating to my son's care documented. Too much is in our heads.
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In our situation, care managers have always been involved. Ours gets 2:1 support, 24/7, for when she is in the supported living house. Social services pay for the bulk of the cost of the carers and our daughter contributes towards it. The care manager will have come across many scenarios and have knowledge of options.
Good luck at the meeting.
OP
OP
PaulSB
Squire
- Location
- Chorley, Lancashire
OP
OP
PaulSB
Squire
- Location
- Chorley, Lancashire
Well this is proving very, very difficult. The nub of the issue is who can and cannot be responsible for an adult's financial affairs. My son shares with two other men. I can be legally responsible for my son's financial affairs. I cannot be responsible for the other two adult men. The same applies to the other parents. We've spoken to a couple of banks, they won't touch us. Now we could be economical with the truth and simply open a joint account but if it goes wrong we would be completely exposed.
At the moment the only solution we have is for all transactions to be cash. This is far from secure and a risk to the care staff. Some of the staff don't drive. For example to pay a bill they would have to walk or catch a bus to the post office. The November - January energy bills are usually £550-600 each month. Who wants to carry that around?
The whole process has thrown up another problem. I set up bank accounts 16 years ago to manage my son's finances. Of course the law has changed in that time and I've probably, almost certainly, been acting illegally for the past 10-12 years! I had not idea. Later today I have to apply to become my lad's legal deputy.
We have found companies who can provide the service needed. The lowest cost is £15/week per person. That would be a total cost to manage the household finances of £2340 pa.
At the moment the only solution we have is for all transactions to be cash. This is far from secure and a risk to the care staff. Some of the staff don't drive. For example to pay a bill they would have to walk or catch a bus to the post office. The November - January energy bills are usually £550-600 each month. Who wants to carry that around?
The whole process has thrown up another problem. I set up bank accounts 16 years ago to manage my son's finances. Of course the law has changed in that time and I've probably, almost certainly, been acting illegally for the past 10-12 years! I had not idea. Later today I have to apply to become my lad's legal deputy.
We have found companies who can provide the service needed. The lowest cost is £15/week per person. That would be a total cost to manage the household finances of £2340 pa.
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craigwend
Grimpeur des terrains plats
https://www.mencap.org.uk/advice-and-support/wills-and-trusts-service?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw1Yy5BhD-ARIsAI0RbXbf6s2LzPDjB2TCDD39rJImRvfUVdwhSWlBfUotGZZ5IaHDYaNoV7gaArbpEALw_wcB&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=1766811505&utm_term=how does mencap support individuals with learning disabilities
https://www.mencap.org.uk/advice-an...support-parents-and-carers-children-and-young
There will be plenty of organisations local and national with this issue, as you note you've probably been acting 'unlawfuly' since the implementation of Mental Capacity Act (which was a very good thing as a whole) - hopefully and seriously there's an equivalent 'chat' out there for parents / family with similar issues. Good luck
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OP
OP
PaulSB
Squire
- Location
- Chorley, Lancashire
I thought I should update this thread as it may be of use to other families in our position. My thanks to everyone who contributed to this, there were good ideas to investigate. So without further ado................
One adult cannot be responsible for another's financial affairs without obtaining a PoA, becoming an Appointee or gaining Deputyship via the Court of Protection. In our situation parents needed to manage a household budget via a multi-user bank account to which each client contributed. The banks wouldn't allow an account to be opened without the parents being at best untruthful about the account's intended use. For the clients and house to manage their own affairs in any manner other than cash was proving unworkable. Using cash is the only alternative, a difficult one in this day and age and one which is open to abuse.
There are companies that provide an appointee service and can legally manage client and household expenses. Such companies are familiar with the hurdles properties with more than one tenan present. There are easily applied solutions available to these businesses. Typically the client is charged £15 - 20/week, £65 - 80/month, for the service. For individuals living on benefits this is a significant sum. In my son's case we were not prepared to pay this cost, this was driving the house towards the cash solution.
Yesterday a conversation with one potential provider was an absolute gamechanger. As a family we are now happy to retain a company to deal with our son's financial affairs. It transpires using a company does not cost the client anything. The net effect on his/her costs is zero,
This is the position with Lancashire County Council who fund our son's care. It will probably be similar with other CCs. Each client is expected to make a contribution to care costs. The amount is assessed annually via a Personal Financial Assessment between LCC and the client. The assessment determines the monthly care contribution. The client can offset certain costs against the care contribution, one of these is the cost of using an appointee service.
For example if a client's care contribution is assessed at £100/week, the appointee service charge can be deducted reducing the contribution to £85, the £15 balance is paid to the appointee company. The net cost is zero but split over two payments.
The above is an example of just how complex it can be navigating finances for vulnerable individuals on benefits. It has long been my view the benefits and other systems are deliberately made as complex as possible to deter claimants and reduce costs for government. Navigating this has taken me 5 weeks, imagine the impossible task this would set individuals without a parent or carer to advocate on their behalf.
I'm furious with my son's care provider for their failure to explain this to us and other families. If there are others on CC who would like chapter and verse on how to go about the process please ask. The above is the short, simple version!!!!! I'd be happy to help
One adult cannot be responsible for another's financial affairs without obtaining a PoA, becoming an Appointee or gaining Deputyship via the Court of Protection. In our situation parents needed to manage a household budget via a multi-user bank account to which each client contributed. The banks wouldn't allow an account to be opened without the parents being at best untruthful about the account's intended use. For the clients and house to manage their own affairs in any manner other than cash was proving unworkable. Using cash is the only alternative, a difficult one in this day and age and one which is open to abuse.
There are companies that provide an appointee service and can legally manage client and household expenses. Such companies are familiar with the hurdles properties with more than one tenan present. There are easily applied solutions available to these businesses. Typically the client is charged £15 - 20/week, £65 - 80/month, for the service. For individuals living on benefits this is a significant sum. In my son's case we were not prepared to pay this cost, this was driving the house towards the cash solution.
Yesterday a conversation with one potential provider was an absolute gamechanger. As a family we are now happy to retain a company to deal with our son's financial affairs. It transpires using a company does not cost the client anything. The net effect on his/her costs is zero,
This is the position with Lancashire County Council who fund our son's care. It will probably be similar with other CCs. Each client is expected to make a contribution to care costs. The amount is assessed annually via a Personal Financial Assessment between LCC and the client. The assessment determines the monthly care contribution. The client can offset certain costs against the care contribution, one of these is the cost of using an appointee service.
For example if a client's care contribution is assessed at £100/week, the appointee service charge can be deducted reducing the contribution to £85, the £15 balance is paid to the appointee company. The net cost is zero but split over two payments.
The above is an example of just how complex it can be navigating finances for vulnerable individuals on benefits. It has long been my view the benefits and other systems are deliberately made as complex as possible to deter claimants and reduce costs for government. Navigating this has taken me 5 weeks, imagine the impossible task this would set individuals without a parent or carer to advocate on their behalf.
I'm furious with my son's care provider for their failure to explain this to us and other families. If there are others on CC who would like chapter and verse on how to go about the process please ask. The above is the short, simple version!!!!! I'd be happy to help
