AUKUS partnership

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Moodyman

Legendary Member
Ha! I see the Beeb is now reporting the 'international backlash' against this partnership https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-58592613

This 'international' backlash consisting of France upset at the unravelling of their great submarine misselling scandal and, uh, China.

The backlash is not about the submarines alone. There is a wider context. That the USA don't give a sh1t about anybody but itself.

Consider the era of Trump, the shambolic Afghanistan withdrawal and this agreement. The French and the Germans have been muttering about a European military force as replacement to the perfidy of the Anglo-Saxons. This could increase that push. There is also likely to be increased reticence for the EU and other major countries to align themselves with the US against China and Russia.

I imagine Taiwan will be questioning the reliability of the US, if it can do what it did to NATO allies in Afghanistan or the French in this submarine deal.

Japan and India, two other major allies the US wants as bulwarks against the red dragon, could also start questioning US reliability. So, yes, there is likely to be global ramifications of recent events.
 

HMS_Dave

Grand Old Lady
The backlash is not about the submarines alone. There is a wider context. That the USA don't give a sh1t about anybody but itself.

Consider the era of Trump, the shambolic Afghanistan withdrawal and this agreement. The French and the Germans have been muttering about a European military force as replacement to the perfidy of the Anglo-Saxons. This could increase that push. There is also likely to be increased reticence for the EU and other major countries to align themselves with the US against China and Russia.

I imagine Taiwan will be questioning the reliability of the US, if it can do what it did to NATO allies in Afghanistan or the French in this submarine deal.

Japan and India, two other major allies the US wants as bulwarks against the red dragon, could also start questioning US reliability. So, yes, there is likely to be global ramifications of recent events.
Taiwan aren't questioning the reliability of the AUKUS partnership. They actively welcome it, its widely reported they are quite happy about it.

"Ruling Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) lawmaker Wang Ting-yu said AUKUS is clearly aimed at containing Chinese military power, especially with regard to the international waters of the South China Sea, and the Chinese Communist Party's military threat to invade Taiwan by force.

"This new military alliance ... will act as a check and balance that will improve Indo-Pacific regional stability," Wang told RFA. "It is helpful to peace and stability in this region."

As far as Taiwan is concerned, we are happy to see this"

Japan similarly are reportedly quite happy with the new partnership...
 
Australia has been part of the 5 eyes alliance arrangement for 70 years. Not sure why this has become a game changer or a landmark event. The US Naval fleet also has major bases in Japan, Guam , South Korea and Singapore. And their carriers groups have been patrolling South China Sea for yonks.

I suspect it is more commercial than security. The Aussies after a long and controversial exercise chose the French for their new class of conventional subs. They however been having issues with the agreement on the amount of local content. No work has started and China seems to be the excuse to get out of the agreement without facing a massive local backlash. The China threat is real but in this case China has become the convenient bogeyman.
 
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HMS_Dave

Grand Old Lady
I suspect it is more commercial than security. The Aussies after a long and controversial exercise chose the French for new class of conventional subs but they have been having issues with the agreement on the amount of local content. No work has started and China seems to be the excuse to get out of the agreement without facing a massive local backlash. The China threat is real but in this case China has become the convenient bogeyman.

I think the issues with the agreement cannot be overstated. The Aussies had nothing on paper to show for nearly 5 years worth of work, often butting heads with the French contractors who when asked to view progress would be met with cries of "national security risks" by the French. The Aussies have their own national security concerns and im not at all surprised by this. Not knowing the details of the agreement, there seems to be some discrepancies between what was expected of both countries from the French and Aussie sides.

On the China threat. Im not sure what you mean with regards to them being the convenient bogeyman. Are you talking in respect to the Aussies ripping up the deal with the French? I'll assume that.

You have to remember, Designing and building a fleet of Submarines, catering for its infrastructure, skills, manpower, materials, operational efficiency etc etc doesn't happen overnight. I'll use the US Virginia Class submarines as an example as they are part of a navy with the highest budget and naval warship manufacturing capabilities in the world...

First designs started as far back as 1991. The first Virginia class was commissioned in 2004. The next in 2006. Only around now is production at its fastest and most efficient where they are churning our around 2 a year and the last Sub is going to roll off in 2043ish. Of course, we are talking large scales here, but the complexity will likely be even higher for Australia as they have never built or commissioned a Nuclear powered submarine before and is a huge undertaking, even with experts working on their side.

With that in mind, a submarine fleet is not really a reactionary fleet you can just build but more of a planned capability some decades into the future. The "just in case" type of capability. You'd rather have it, than wish you'd had it...

The regional partners are happy to see this deal in motion is because there is nothing the Japanese, Taiwanese etc want more, than to have another capable player in the region on their side in the event of war, with the French deal, nothing was moving forward and the current fleet of Australian Collins Class Submarines are limited in capability, range than kind of thing and a new class of stealthy nuclear submarines is a welcome partner in the region.
 
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JBGooner

JBGooner

Über Member
The backlash is not about the submarines alone. There is a wider context. That the USA don't give a sh1t about anybody but itself.

Doesn't this new agreement show the opposite? The US is going to share some of its most secret technologies with Australia.

Consider the era of Trump, the shambolic Afghanistan withdrawal and this agreement. The French and the Germans have been muttering about a European military force as replacement to the perfidy of the Anglo-Saxons. This could increase that push. There is also likely to be increased reticence for the EU and other major countries to align themselves with the US against China and Russia.

Because the French lost out on a submarine deal? Germany, who probably had a better offering than the French, also lost out on this tender back in 2016.
I can imagine the German defence minister working quite hard to hide the smirk from his French counterpart when they next meet.
But yeah probably a little kilometerage will be made towards an EU defence force with tales of perfide Anglo-Saxons.
 
On the China threat. Im not sure what you mean with regards to them being the convenient bogeyman. Are you talking in respect to the Aussies ripping up the deal with the French? I'll assume that.
This article does indicate the multiple issues with the OZ / French contract. It appears more commercial.
https://www.politico.eu/article/why-australia-wanted-out-of-its-french-sub-deal/

It hard to tell the electorate that after dicking around since 2008, selecting the French in 2016 and then dragging the signing of the agreement in 2018, and the French revising the OZ content from 90% to 60% in 2020, that it is a no-go.

They have to find a more palatable reason to throw at the electorate so the tilt to a bogeyman.
 

Beebo

Firm and Fruity
Location
Hexleybeef
This 'international' backlash consisting of France upset at the unravelling of their great submarine misselling scandal and, uh, China.
France have recalled their Diplomats over this, they are taking it very personally.
All these decisions have secondary affects.
The French navy will now have zero motivation to stop migrants in the channel and all the bleating from Patel will be met with a shrug of the shoulders.
 
France have recalled their Diplomats over this, they are taking it very personally.
All these decisions have secondary affects.
The French navy will now have zero motivation to stop migrants in the channel and all the bleating from Patel will be met with a shrug of the shoulders.
The French have only themselves to blame. Here is list of bloopers from them
1. After announcing the award to DCNS France and before signing the agreement, the Australian press received over 20k pages of design specs for DCNS submarine for India including sensitive items such as combat capabilities. Other documents with other countries were also in it and it could only have come from DCNS France not India. Despite this and after French assurances, the Aussies signed the contract. Indian Govt was hopping mad as their first sub in this class was going to be launched and their enemies had the blueprint. The French never did charge anyone for the leak. The only thing they did was change their name from DCNS to the "Naval Group" as the brand was damaged beyond repair.
2. While in talks with Aussie Defence Minister over the content of Australian resources, the French team cast aspersion on the city of Adelaide and quality of its residents where the subs are to be built. Not realising the Minister came from Adelaide and his constituency is in Adelaide. The French Defence Minister and a delegation flew to OZ to meet and apologise. He refused to meet them.
3. In 2020, the French unilaterally announced that local input will be 60% and not 90%. From that day onwards, the DCNS ship began to sink.
4. 3 months ago during OZ Senate hearing their Defence Secretary stated clearly they were exploring Plan B if the DCNS contract could not proceed. French must have thought after Australia spent AUD $2B on the project and having set up Australian Office in Cherbourg to oversee the project, the Aussies had no leverage. So they did nothing to fix it. I guess they were wrong.
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/br...d/news-story/778969b5d3f1c5498e62bf0c3d6291d3

We will never know the true and full extent of reasons behind it but the bloopers that came out are serious enough. DCNS (now Naval Group) is 62% owned by the French State and the buck stops with the Macron not some private firm. So what you see in recalling the Ambassadors is political theatre to lessen the damage to him and his party.
 

Pat "5mph"

A kilogrammicaly challenged woman
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