Armstrong charged and banned

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smutchin

Cat 6 Racer
Location
The Red Enclave
Did speeds drop when the sport was cleaned up? Witness D Millar saying how the speed of the peloton is now insanely fast in comparison to the (drug-fuelled) days when he started out.

Speeds on the big mountains are significantly slower than they were in the days of Pantani, Virenque et al.

when I see an attack in the mountains from an unlikely candidate I immediately think he is doped.

Well, it's slightly easier for unlikely candidates to attack on the mountains now. Also, you don't see so many of them getting to the top and looking like they've just woken up after a long sleep filled with sweet dreams - they generally look more like broken husks, which is as it should be after putting in that level of effort.

I did notice that Rui Costa looked surprisingly fresh after his stage win in the Tour de Suisse the other day, but on the other hand felt reassured by the fact that Frank Schleck cracked before the summit after the monster effort he put in.

d.
 
Such as in the Golden Days when Copi, Mallejac, Rivière, Anquetil, Simpson, Mercx, Yates, Kelly & Pantani where racing ? All dopers .
The Tour and professional cycling has never been "real" !

No one condones that but not all drugs are equal, besides it's irrelevant, we'd like to move on, eliminate such cheating, not condone it. I'd like to see riders win because they have the talent and commitment not because they injected themselves from carthorse to racehorse.

As for Armstrong, he created the biggest lie and is still living it, so big, even if he's found guilty, his supporters will shout injustice and conspiracy. I'd like to see him found out but it's the past. These days I'm much more interested in seeing current cheats and suspected cheats caught and those with a dodgy past asked awkward questions, Bruyneel, Riis, Roche etc... and the UCI face up to it's responsibilities.

None of that stops me enjoying the sport or recognising an epic ride, although bolts from the blue are treated with a healthy scepticism, if it looks unbelievable, it probably was.
 

Hont

Guru
Location
Bromsgrove
On a postitive note; I think last years tour was probably the cleanest in years and really hope that I can say the same about this years in a few weeks time.

Likewise. I think it will be certainly cleaner without Contador and Andy Schleck at the depart. If only his brother, Leipheimer, Horner, and Kloeden were absent too.

Hmm now what does that list of some of the people I don't believe in have in common?
 

smutchin

Cat 6 Racer
Location
The Red Enclave
Likewise. I think it will be certainly cleaner without Contador and Andy Schleck at the depart. If only his brother, Leipheimer, Horner, and Kloeden were absent too.

Horner won't be there. He's been out injured, so chose not to ride the Tour de Suisse in order to receive ongoing treatment. His team stipulated that participation in the Suisse or the Dauphiné was a TdF selection requirement, hence he hasn't been picked.

Whether or not the medical treatment that caused him to miss the Suisse was entirely necessary or was in fact quite convenient remains to be seen...

See previous comment re: Frank Schleck.

d.
 

albion

Guest
This really has to be one of the biggest witch-hunts in the history of mankind.

I have always been sceptical about Armstrong but fact s are facts and all we have is witch hunting.
So they are letting off the dopers on condition they 'get Armstrong', who is is the only consistent one in performances so technically doping for him is far less likely.

It also defies logic that he would risk his legacy in continuing to dope post tour-de-france.
 

lukesdad

Guest
No one condones that but not all drugs are equal, besides it's irrelevant, we'd like to move on, eliminate such cheating, not condone it. I'd like to see riders win because they have the talent and commitment not because they injected themselves from carthorse to racehorse.

As for Armstrong, he created the biggest lie and is still living it, so big, even if he's found guilty, his supporters will shout injustice and conspiracy. I'd like to see him found out but it's the past. These days I'm much more interested in seeing current cheats and suspected cheats caught and those with a dodgy past asked awkward questions, Bruyneel, Riis, Roche etc... and the UCI face up to it's responsibilities.

None of that stops me enjoying the sport or recognising an epic ride, although bolts from the blue are treated with a healthy scepticism, if it looks unbelievable, it probably was.

Irrelevant !...not all drugs are equal !.....:ohmy::gun:

...because they got away with it, is the reason it still exsists.
 
i have no opinion on LA, he probably cheated then stamped on anyone who questioned him by using the wealth created by said cheating. or he was just a very good, fit rider with a large heart.........

it would seem that the downtrodden are feeling confident enough (or being coerced) to speak up now and someone somewhere is rich enough to foot the expenses of those very expensive lawyers.

bit of a playground bully getting some back by the sounds of it.
 

ColinJ

Puzzle game procrastinator!
Yours is a noble post. None of us wants to appear to support something tainted. I admire your stance, but I disagree.

I adore the Tour and despite the grime.

If you want to watch something real rather than fake, and if you equate fakery with endemic drug use, then which decade, year or even single stage of the Tour represents a period when it was worthy of your attention?

I am almost 50 and do not believe there has been a clean Tour in my lifetime. To my mind, that does not make it fake.

There have been many epic Tours and countless personal performances of quite extraordinary courage and skill.

But by your analysis, almost all were fake. I admire your stance, but I disagree.
I still watch pro cycling and I still enjoy it, but I don't love it with a passion the way that I used to. My naive belief that it was a clean and healthy sport was shattered by the Festina bust and everything that followed. It's like forgiving a partner for an affair - you might still be very fond of them, but things can never be quite the same again ...

When was the last clean Tour ...? Well, I believe that Greg Lemond's win in 1989 was clean. Watching that Tour was what encouraged me to buy a bike and start riding again. I'm sure that cheating was going on then too, but it was shortly after that that EPO abuse became widespread and you can see what happened to the results of great riders like Lemond, Hampsten and Fignon in the early 90s. They could no longer compete and retired rather than joining in the abuse.

There are a few top riders that I really believe are clean. Cadel Evans is one - I'd be horrified if he turned out to be a cheat too. He simply looks like he is suffering a lot when he is going flat out. I get really pissed off seeing riders fly up mountain after mountain and then cross the finishing line looking like they have just done an easy recovery ride, not even having the decency to pretend to be out of breath!

I'm sure that many riders only cheated because they were convinced that everybody else was! Warped logic made it okay because it was a 'level playing field' again. The thing is - it killed the careers and aspirations of many fine young cyclists who were not willing to 'prepare properly'.
 

Flying_Monkey

Recyclist
Location
Odawa
This really has to be one of the biggest witch-hunts in the history of mankind.

This has to be one of the biggest overstatements in the history of the universe. :laugh:
 

NotthatJasonKenny

Faster on HFLC
Location
Bolton
Being new to cycling and after some inspiration, I read his book. It's a great book and if he doped after his battle with cancer then he's an idiot. Then again, maybe, he's not such a nice guy and there are people ready to stab him in the back? Regardless, winning 7 alongside other 'dopers' is still something.
 

Flying_Monkey

Recyclist
Location
Odawa
Such as in the Golden Days when Copi, Mallejac, Rivière, Anquetil, Simpson, Mercx, Yates, Kelly & Pantani where racing ? All dopers .
The Tour and professional cycling has never been "real" !

It simply is not the case that all through Armstrong's career, everyone was doping. And you are not comparing like with like anyway. The era of 'pot belge', brandy and speed which characterised the riders of the post-war period into the 70s was different from the scene from the late 80s when laboratory pharmaceuticals started to be abused in a big way (i.e. the EPO era). In fact, until the late 60s, speed was not even banned so you can hardly claim that people were 'unreal' or 'cheating' for taking these kinds of things.

In the 90s, there many riders who were basically forced to make the choice of leaving the sport or doping by social pressure (they would be able to keep up if they didn't) or by manipualtive team managers. In fact the 90s fostered a particular culture of cynicism in the sport, where the most devious were the ones who would win. This was already coming to an end by the 2000s as regulation and surveillance started to catch up with drug technologies and doping practices. So did the Law - as the growing sophistication of doping practices meant increasing overlap with organised crime and underground labs. This actually made it far more risky for all involved once the police, prosecutors and courts started getting involved

Managers and teams started to take a stand and more ethical team policies emerged with Highroad and Garmin and others. The biological passport was a turning point, as was the growth of the 'whereabouts' rules. Training has got far more scientific and controlled instead. Younger riders coming in now are much less likely to be under pressure to dope but will face much more rigorous training and monitoring. Another very important factor is that there has been some greater control over the difficulty of the Grand Tours - they are still amongst the hardest competitions in sport, but they aren't insanely, stupidly difficult any more. You don't have to dope just to finish. And you have really seen an end to the 'unbelievable' attacks in the mountains.

It's not all great. The UCI still has to work better with WADA and race organizers. New tests have to be embraced. The biological passport has to be tightened up. But it is better.

As for Armstrong, you can see where he fits in this story. He was a product of the EPO era, and perhaps the most cynical of them all. I don't want to see him stripped of his titles, I think that would be pretty meaningless in the context, but I do want to see him and his co-conspiritors held to some account not just for the doping but for the intimidation, lies and cynicism they fostered, and for cycling to acknowledge its recent past as part of the process of producing a cleaner sport.
 

NotthatJasonKenny

Faster on HFLC
Location
Bolton
the intimidation, lies and cynicism they fostered, and for cycling to acknowledge its recent past as part of the process of producing a cleaner sport.

Do any spectators really know what happens within the sport? Innocent until guilty and no smoke without fire to balance the sayings but 7 tours and not caught? If he was and they failed to catch him in 7 tours then the sport is as guilty as he would be.
 

Hont

Guru
Location
Bromsgrove
See previous comment re: Frank Schleck.

Agree that it looked better after such an attack, but he still took 30 seconds in no time and he may have just bonked. Dopers still bonk. And Frank still paid Dr Fuentes 7000 odd Euros.

And he's on a team managed by Bruyneel - which was the point of my post really.
 

Flying_Monkey

Recyclist
Location
Odawa
Agree that it looked better after such an attack, but he still took 30 seconds in no time and he may have just bonked. Dopers still bonk. And Frank still paid Dr Fuentes 7000 odd Euros.

And he's on a team managed by Bruyneel - which was the point of my post really.

His doctor (and Andy's) is also one of the 5 people charged by USADA in this case.
 

Flying_Monkey

Recyclist
Location
Odawa
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