Armstrong charged and banned

[Boris Bajic]

I said that people feel conned so I suppose you are making a point about my naivety.
When you look back in the thread, often you see that people who now condemn LA freely admit to believing he was clean. Many LA fans actually think he is/was clean. Until recently this was still a controversial position regarding LA... because the whole LA story goes beyond the bike, indeed it wasn't about the bike for many people, but about the inspirational cancer story told to many people who didn't really know much about Pro-cycling.
I'm sure you're aware of this really.
When I started watching TdF in the late 80's, I was a young teenager watching without much knowledge of the history of the sport. I didn't think about it because I really didn't know of the existence of doping.

I don't think every sport in the world has had pervasive drug abuse. Perhaps naive, there you have me, but I suspect I'm standing with a lot of people and I find it odd you don't perceive that.

No. I see the point you were making. My reference was more to those who do feel conned than those who see it in others.

I am as guilty as the next person of building the LA thing up when he was first winning. Not because I thought he was clean, but because he was winning. The crazy thing (and it was crazy) after Beloki crashed in front of him was unbelievable even at the seventh viewing.

I used to tell my kids stories about Hinault, Lemond, Abdu...thingummy, Pantani and others when they were little. They drank up the magic as much as I did. I just never saw the 'bonne preparation' as an issue.

My surprise is simply a matter of people still feeling conned or cheated after all that has come out in the past fifteen years.

That does seem naive, but I may be being harsh in that assessment.

 

[User169]

I'm doubtful too after reading up on GM blood boosting.

What GM blood boosting, Smeggers?

 

[thom]

My surprise is simply a matter of people still feeling conned or cheated after all that has come out in the past fifteen years.

That does seem naive, but I may be being harsh in that assessment.

Ah OK, I take your point. Yeah I think it's at the first point of seeing through the story that people feel conned.
Personally I would have defended LA a few years ago without really liking his personality and the cult surrounding it. I dunno at which point the penny dropped with me and how I felt but I wasn't really into the larger than life personality thing to start with.

It is true that self selection means the people on this forum know more than average about cycling so the issues around LA ought not to be so surprising but I imagine that parts of the wide constituency of LA fans will have felt fooled on reflection. Although the LA foundation did get an upsurge in donations recently, their income has been steadily suffering in light of the allegations and that article in one of the Dallas newspapers backs that up.

 

[swansonj]

The

I've been away. This is a long thread. Can someone summarise 112 pages please in 1 short paragraph. Thanks.

(1) The evidence is now very strong indeed that Armstrong doped.
(2) There are several other quite interesting side issues to be debated, including: Are the procedures that are being used being applied properly? Are those procedures the best or fairest that could have been devised?
(3) Some people probably raise these other issues in order to muddy the waters of Armstrong's highly probable guilt. But they are legitimate issues nonetheless.
(4) Because some people are so focussed on Armstrong's guilt, to them, any attempt to raise such side issues appears to be perceived as an attempt to say that Armstrong is not guilty and therefore they slap it down.
(5) As a result, catching up on the odd thirty pages when getting back from a holiday is a rather depressing experience.

 

[Red Light]

I've been away. This is a long thread. Can someone summarise 112 pages please in 1 short paragraph. Thanks.

He's either guilty even if proven innocent* or innocent until proven guilty depending on your point of view. Take your pick. The former is in the majority here.

* any proof being a conspiracy to hide the truth of his guilt.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Whilst the chemical evolve, I think so has the attitude....


These days if doping is happening, it is very much is down to the individual and has no 'structural' or moral support within the sport, as in the dark days of the past.

At least I hope so.

I don't share your hope. If doping is happening it will (still) be institutionalised and done with the knowledge, tactic consent, and in some instances active collaboration/insistence of others in the team.

Those who doped in the past, and lied about it, are members of and managers of teams. I'm utterly unconvinced they've had any sort moral rebirth.

 

[thom]

Could you imagine if the whole Sky project went t*ts up? There'd be a national uproar.

There would be uproar, disgust, shame. It's inconceivable how bad that would be for cycling, not only in this country.
Let's hope they're riding the line correctly...

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I hope your not right, but yet.........

Could you imagine if the whole Sky project went t*ts up? There'd be a national uproar.

I've read various articles claiming some characteristics of some of the performance improvements/failures from some individuals give cause for concern.

Do I think Sky would not cheat if certain circumstances were right? I'd like to think they would not, but I didn't come up the Severn on a bicycle, they are only human, after all.

 

[MacB]

I hope your not right, but yet.........

Could you imagine if the whole Sky project went t*ts up? There'd be a national uproar.

I'm disgusted Smeggers - your/you're are not interchangeable - if you play so free and loose with the English language it has to call into question the veracity of your entire posts.

 

[User169]

Trying to find the link*. But basically I think, genetically invisible EPO.

* Biosimilar Growth Hormone.... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2777019/

Thanks, Smeggers. Not sure I see the link to doping though. As I read it, this is an article about "generic" medicines in the biopharma field and what you have to do establish biosimilarity to an existing marketed product.

 

[just jim]

This may (or may not) seem surprising, but the process that is being undertaken and the positions / approaches of the various authorities involved (USADA, UCI, WADA, Sparks, the protagonists etc.) also offers up a great deal which might be described as driving intellectual curiosity. It's perfectly possible to thing LA is guilty and still derive satisfaction from analysing and questioning the process which is being undertaken. Getting the right result out of the UCI has quite some value to the future of professional cycling. It's really not all about being a deluded fan. Sorry if that is unacceptable to some of the more vocal on this thread, or if it causes "much detriment".

I'm not getting much satisfaction reading the Cunobelin/ Redlight tag-team's pedantic postings.
I think Thom has said it better that I can, on post back -a-ways. Well done sir!

 

[just jim]

He's either guilty even if proven innocent* or innocent until proven guilty depending on your point of view. Take your pick. The former is in the majority here.

* any proof being a conspiracy to hide the truth of his guilt.

Must he?
I suppose it sums up your skewed interpretations of some very measured and patient contributions thus far!

 

[Crackle]

I don't share your hope. If doping is happening it will (still) be institutionalised and done with the knowledge, tactic consent, and in some instances active collaboration/insistence of others in the team.

Those who doped in the past, and lied about it, are members of and managers of teams. I'm utterly unconvinced they've had any sort moral rebirth.

You're probably both right and wrong. If I had to choose a balance for the moment, my optimistic half full beer glasses would say you are currently more wrong than right as I think we are seeing at the moment but I don't think anyone who follows the sport is naive enough to think doping is a thing of the past and the future is all rosy. It seems we can only judge the current generation in another generation or two's time, so be it.

 

[asterix]

To all of you who decide to throw away their Livestrong band, please cut it in two so it doesn't strangle swans, ducks etc.

Re-cycle it?

 

[Flying_Monkey]

This is really interesting and illustrates just what happened (or happens?) when you confess and go public in pro-cycling.