arms on bars

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Fnaar

Smutmaster General
Location
Thumberland
Not quite, and I'm feeling tired at the moment so I'm struggling to find the right words. It's all about fulcrums and leverage and pi is probably involved at some point. :biggrin:

Chicken and Mushroom? Or one of Vernon's concoctions?
smile.gif
 

threebikesmcginty

Corn Fed Hick...
Location
...on the slake
Ever tried the crouching over the crossbar technique for downhills, saw that first on the TdeF, tried it but didn't get on with it?

bayliss050605246ps.jpg
 

Angelfishsolo

A Velocipedian
Not quite, and I'm feeling tired at the moment so I'm struggling to find the right words. It's all about fulcrums and leverage and pi is probably involved at some point. :biggrin:

Let me try and paint a picture. If you take two extremes.

#1 with bars 120cm wide, the circumference of the diameter of the circle that they would turn in (if they could go through 360 degrees) would be around 3.8m, so moving the end of the bars by 2cm would move the front wheel from the straight ahead by less than 1 degree (I think).

#2 with bars 30cm wide, the circumference of the diameter of the circle that they would turn in (if they could go through 360 degrees) would be around 94cm, so moving the end of the bars by 2cm would move the front wheel around 8 degrees from the straight ahead, which is quite a distance.

So, the further you get from the steerer, the larger the diameter of the circle, the less impact any movement at the bars has on the direction of the bike. Thus, addressing your second question first, no. :biggrin: Moving the hands a given amount will move the front of the bike by less than if you were holding closer to the centre of the circle.

Now, look at it from the steerer rather than the bars. Yes it does mean that the least amount of pressure is required to turn the bars but the other side is that you would need to put a heck of a lot more pressure at the centre of the circle, at the steerer, to be able to move your hands. So, by holding further from the steerer, your bike will be less deflected by movements from the tyre through the bars because you have greater leverage to maintain your line.

Therefore, holding the tops close to the stem makes for a twitchy bike with small inputs creating huge movement in the wheel, whereas holding the hoods or the tops gives you greater leverage, more fine control and a reduced liability to be deflected by steering forces travelling up the forks.

However... all this physics stuff which is making my brain hurt could be irrelevant because (and I always loved this get out clause) it relies on everything else being equal.

The truth is that the two hand positions mean that everything else is not equal. When you are on the tops, there is generally less weight going down your arms and through your hands then if you are on the hoods. I use the top of the levers because that position is even more stretched out than using the hoods but that means that even more weight is taken on my hands and it means that my arms are straighter than when on the tops, so there is less "shock absorption" left at my elbow. It is possible that this difference in weight and the reduction in the ability to absorb bumps do conspire together to mean that a small wobble isn't unknowingly absorbed by your arms but does make the bike twitch.

I need more tea before I reread this post :biggrin:
 

MacB

Lover of things that come in 3's
Ever tried the crouching over the crossbar technique for downhills, saw that first on the TdeF, tried it but didn't get on with it?

bayliss050605246ps.jpg

Nah, you want to get your weight back, so go off the back of the saddle and hang your arse above the rear wheel, if you get too close you'll know it.

Personally I haven't yet met a big hill where my 'natural momentum' can't get me more than fast enough
 

lulubel

Über Member
Location
Malaga, Spain
Let me try and paint a picture. If you take two extremes.

#1 with bars 120cm wide, the circumference of the diameter of the circle that they would turn in (if they could go through 360 degrees) would be around 3.8m, so moving the end of the bars by 2cm would move the front wheel from the straight ahead by less than 1 degree (I think).

#2 with bars 30cm wide, the circumference of the diameter of the circle that they would turn in (if they could go through 360 degrees) would be around 94cm, so moving the end of the bars by 2cm would move the front wheel around 8 degrees from the straight ahead, which is quite a distance.

So, the further you get from the steerer, the larger the diameter of the circle, the less impact any movement at the bars has on the direction of the bike.

Got it! And thanks for explaining it in a way that made sense.

That explains why riding on the tops when I first got my road bike felt so wobbly compared to my old hybrid. My hands were much closer to the steerer, so I needed to move them much less to make the bike turn.

The truth is that the two hand positions mean that everything else is not equal. When you are on the tops, there is generally less weight going down your arms and through your hands then if you are on the hoods. I use the top of the levers because that position is even more stretched out than using the hoods but that means that even more weight is taken on my hands and it means that my arms are straighter than when on the tops, so there is less "shock absorption" left at my elbow. It is possible that this difference in weight and the reduction in the ability to absorb bumps do conspire together to mean that a small wobble isn't unknowingly absorbed by your arms but does make the bike twitch.

And this is probably the explanation for it. My bike is set up for a much more relaxed riding position than TdF bikes, and I'm also aware that I was holding the top of the levers quite lightly and cautiously. Next time, I'll try leaning on them and see what happens. (This probably also explains why I feel so comfortable on the drops, because I really do lean my weight down onto them.)
 
From the OP " I tried this on a ride this evening, and it made my legs hurt on tops of thighs pretty quickly." This is to be expected and if you had been training for a TT you load different muscle groups.

If you have not been training for a TT and then use the TT position for a race you will not produce your best performance. Cancellara trains on his tt bike for up to 200k.

To go with the forward position, usually the saddle gets moved further forward too. This allows you to take some of the load off your quads and to recruit the glutes and hamstrings the most powerful muscles in your body. This depends on how much flexibility you have in your spine, glutes and hamstrings. These can be improved with training.

If you want some real excitement try tri-bars with zipp 404's on the front and a strong crosswind.
 
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