Acquaintance injured by rider of illegal 'e-bike'.

[Alex321]

Probably besides the point, but it never even touched the sides, and I doubt very much they would satisfy any genuine test by HMRC.

Why?

I was working as an IT contractor at the time IR35 was introduced, and was heavily involved with the PCG, who brought the Judicial Review of it, plus helped a few cases to go through, setting precedent. So I have a pretty good idea how employment vs self-employment is defined. I as actually investigated by HMRC for IR35, and came up as self-employed.

The delivery riders almost certainly supply their own equipment, and probably have some choice in which deliveries they take, both of which count towards being self-employed. If they are required to work set hours, and don't have any choice, then that would count against them being self employed. There are various other factors, most of which with really don't know whether they comply or not.

 

[Slick]

Obviously you can make the choices anyway you like, but I get this from .gov.

 

[PeteXXX]

A self employed person should have public liability insurance. How their insurance would feel about paying out for a claim if something illegal was taking place, I don't know.

Good luck to your acquaintance @KnittyNorah

 

[Alex321]

Obviously you can make the choices anyway you like, but I get this from .gov.

That all depends on what answers you give, and we really don't know what some significant ones would be.

 

[icowden]

Obviously you can make the choices anyway you like, but I get this from .gov.

Unfortunately it has long been known that that tool isn't fit for purpose and tends to be massively biased towards giving an "employed" result.

 

[Slick]

Unfortunately it has long been known that that tool isn't fit for purpose and tends to be massively biased towards giving an "employed" result.

Mistakes can be costly, so I can understand why.

Pretty much all down to control, where does that lie and can you get someone else to complete your tasks or must it be you.

Not that difficult really.

 

[icowden]

Pretty much all down to control, where does that lie and can you get someone else to complete your tasks or must it be you.
Not that difficult really.

Or scenario B: Can you work for multiple clients? So for example, if you drive for JustEat and Deliveroo you could argue that because you have full autonomy over who you choose to work for and when, you are not an employee under IR35.

The "can you get someone else to complete your tasks bit" is pretty much a waste of space question. It's come up before for me, and the correct answer in my situation is "theoretically yes, but it will never happen because by the time the customer has arranged for IT Access* and systems access to all of the tools and databases that a stand in would need to access, realistically there would be no point arranging for cover".

*may require any user to be sent a company laptop and mobile phone for example

 

[bonzobanana]

What's your source for that?

My understanding is that the EAPC spec stipulates that to be legal the continuous rated power of the electric motor must not exceed 250W.

The wattage rating is pretty much completely ignored. In theory a 250W continuous motor should start overheating at 251W but Bosch mid-drive motors for e-mountain bikes are sustaining output of over 800W perhaps peaking momentarily over 900W at times. A 250W motor basically needs a 7A controller at 36V (7x36 which is about 250W) but in fact the Bosch batteries are delivering over 20A somewhere around 22-23A I think which is 828W (23x36). Yes there are some ebikes that have 7A controllers which maybe peak at no more than 11A momentarily. Those are generally geared hub motor ebikes.

I think if the EU didn't manipulate their certification for the benefit of their own industry such ebikes would have no real advantages as much of the EU ebike industry is about mid-drive ebikes but they tend to be less reliable, much more complicated and they wear out the drivetrain much quicker. They are also much more proprietary and expensive to maintain. It's only really by allowing them to have very high torque by using high current do they have a real selling point which is performance for hill climbing. Apply the same current to a geared hub motor and you can achieve similar high torque output.

Just look at mid-drive motor kits like the Tongsheng and Bafang models they often feature less torque than Bosch mid-drives but clearly state a wattage of 750W.

This 250W rating is really nonsense probably most ebikes on the road exceed it a bit or a lot. I don't see why ebikes can't be classed in the same way as e-motorbikes or power drills. If I buy a 1500W drill it will use up to and including close to 1500W. It's simple to understand and honest.

https://www.ebikeschool.com/myth-ebike-wattage/

Many gig economy ebike riders are doing shifts for many hours on the same battery, maybe 4 to 8hrs and clocking up a huge amount of miles per shift. In contrast I remember reading of a Bosch mid-drive e-mountain bike that went from full charge to depleted in 40 minutes because the rider was tackling steep ascents on the mountain bike pretty much continuously. It doesn't take genius to work out which ebike was using higher wattage. Technically it is easier for mid-drive to have high current use because both the controller and the motor are in the same housing so its definitely easier to feed high current to a mid-drive motor. Hub motors have separate controllers externally. Mid-drive motor kits have a dispreportionate amount of ebike fires. Many people don't understand the higher current requirements of mid-drive and don't fit the correct high current battery packs to those bikes which can lead to more stress on the cells and more fires. So despite mid-drive only being a niche in the market place. About 95% of ebike sales worldwide are hub motor based you get more fires with mid-drive kit ebikes. Proprietary ebikes like Bosch are designed with their own dedicated and proprietary batteries so this isn't an issue for them. While Bosch batteries have a high failure rate they do not lead to fires due to their design.

 

[Alex321]

Or scenario B: Can you work for multiple clients? So for example, if you drive for JustEat and Deliveroo you could argue that because you have full autonomy over who you choose to work for and when, you are not an employee under IR35.

The "can you get someone else to complete your tasks bit" is pretty much a waste of space question. It's come up before for me, and the correct answer in my situation is "theoretically yes, but it will never happen because by the time the customer has arranged for IT Access* and systems access to all of the tools and databases that a stand in would need to access, realistically there would be no point arranging for cover".

*may require any user to be sent a company laptop and mobile phone for example

While the "can you get anybody else to complete your tasks" may never actually be invoked, being theoretically able to is the closest thing there is to a silver bullet when trying to avoid employment status. Still not quite totally decisive.

It is the overall picture that will be looked at, with various factors taken into account. There really isn't any one factor that is completely decisive, either way.

 

[Drago]

Nonsense or not, it's the way things are.

It doesn't matter why they're not measured in the same way as motorcycles or power drills. They simply are not. Once we've accepted that we can all move on with our lives, perhaps even to something relevant to the OP.

 

[mjr]

While the "can you get anybody else to complete your tasks" may never actually be invoked, being theoretically able to is the closest thing there is to a silver bullet when trying to avoid employment status. Still not quite totally decisive.

You have to pass a so-called "background check" to work for most of the delivery services, proving your identity and right to work in the UK. For that to have any meaning, you are forbidden from subcontracting your work.

It is the overall picture that will be looked at, with various factors taken into account. There really isn't any one factor that is completely decisive, either way.

I suspect the best we can say is that this is still being thrashed out by the courts. The companies say things like its workers are "independent contractors" who "maintain the ability to accept or decline orders and drop, end, or pick up runs at any time" but of course, there are allegations that if you decline too many or don't sign on too often when requested, then you get offered less work.

I suspect that at least some of the workers will be classed as employed and, more on-topic, the companies will eventually be held liable for financially encouraging their workers to ride recklessly... but it might not happen soon, as courier vans are still driven along pavements and other dangerous stunts without DPD, Amazon and friends being in the news paying huge damages. (UPS and UK Mail here behave better, but I don't know if that's widespread.)

 

[BoldonLad]

I think the key thing here is, a lady is walking along the pavement, as is her right, and, she was knocked down by a person riding a bicycle/e-bike/illegal moped. She is most definately NOT at fault. Legal opinion should be sort. The ambulance chasers do have their uses.

 

[Gillstay]

I think the key thing here is, a lady is walking along the pavement, as is her right, and, she was knocked down by a person riding a bicycle/e-bike/illegal moped. She is most definately NOT at fault. Legal opinion should be sort. The ambulance chasers do have their uses.

Yep, cos the insurance company will want to knock 25% off any pay out as it was her fault for being there.

 

[BoldonLad]

Yep, cos the insurance company will want to knock 25% off any pay out as it was her fault for being there.

Even if you are right, which I doubt, 75% is better than 0%, in my book.

 

[Gillstay]

Even if you are right, which I doubt, 75% is better than 0%, in my book.

You can doubt as much as you like, but I know a case where the insurance guy pushed for that until he was asked to explain it to the injured guy who they had got to come to the office to meet him. Changed his tune when that happened. Its all a game.
Why should a blameless person get anything less than 100%. Unless of course it pays someone's bonus ?