a conversation with lbs about carbon bikes

[Fiona N]

Way too many myths floating about concerning bikes/frame materials.

Quite often it's user error (overtightening stuff, no mechanical sympathy, poor maintenance).

BSO's don't get recalled as the manufaturers doesn't give a stuff - the things get chucked out.

I'd stick to walking if you are worried about bike materials.

I've never had anything snap or break on me (except a worn rim) - I've still got 20 year old alloy bars on my best bike, and I still do over 50 mph on it - if you believed all this crap you'd never ride your bike.

Time for you to walk everywhere !

Thank you for some common sense

 

[fossyant]

Thank you for some common sense

Somebody needs to

Get out there and ride. Stop worrying. Steel rusts, alloy falls to bits, and carbon fibre melts in the sun.

I knew my rear rim was on it's way out, when it exploded going round a roundabout I thought, 'oh bugger' time for a new one.

 

[dan_bo]

Somebody needs to

Get out there and ride. Stop worrying. Steel rusts, alloy falls to bits, and carbon fibre melts in the sun.

I knew my rear rim was on it's way out, when it exploded going round a roundabout I thought, 'oh bugger' time for a new one.

That's the spirit r kid.

 

[Fiona N]

Those are the typical conditions of use when it comes to bicycles - if a bike can't deal with those, it is not fit for purpose.

Well no - if you're buying a performance frame and gear, a certain level of maintenance is expected as a bare minimum - if you personally can't do it, see your lbs. Same exactly with a performance car - don't expect performance if you don't keep it well looked after. Same with my beloved Gaggia coffee machine - just been for it's biannual service

Recalls are typically instigated by the authorities and the manufacturer doesn't have a veto.

The problem is - one what grounds would 'the authorities' demand a recall of BSOs? As far as I recall even Asda's instructions with the forks wrong way round just caused embarassment and people could take the bike back if they wished but no official recall. The reviewer I read - who actually rode one and broke it - just said it was poor quality but what do you expect for £69. That's the thing, if you buy a BSO in a box, as long as the bits don't actually crack when you look at them, it's hard to make a case for a recall. Say the V-brakes don't stop the bike - well, that's just poor quality components - for a recall, the brake bosses would need to fail in the first few rides and be shown to be of a faulty design/manufacturing process, not just a one off. Like Fossy says, the sellers aren't trading on reputation so aren't going to get involved in a recall for something which won't stop the usual buyers of £69 BSOs buying their wares.


I'm not worried about bike materials. It's just that some products are underdesigned in terms of robustness, which can happen with any material but is especially pronounced with carbon because it is marketed as lightweight and racey. In the 80's, bike makers skimped on steel bikes, too, there's plenty of broken Reynolds steel frames from that era.

I sold a custom 753 TT frame built in 1985 a couple of years ago. I used to TT on it back in the day. The buyer still lets me know how he's getting on - obviously it's part of a collection, not used as a daily commuter - but he's happy to go and give it a thrash round every so often. But he was happy that it was well maintained and he's continuing the job and he knows what he bought. That's the thing isn't it - if people buy £3000 carbon F+F because they're professional standard lightweight as UCI allows etc. then they know (or they should) that such frames aren't built for a lifetime's use. I mean, how many pros are still riding their race bikes once they retire - not many of the ones I've met.

 

[Fiona N]

Somebody needs to

Get out there and ride. Stop worrying. Steel rusts, alloy falls to bits, and carbon fibre melts in the sun.

I knew my rear rim was on it's way out, when it exploded going round a roundabout I thought, 'oh bugger' time for a new one.

I was on a ride in Mallorca when one of the guys ahead of me on the descent peeled a strip off the rim when he applied the brakes - it's given me a) a strong respect for strength of wheels b) keen interest in replacing rims early

Somehow I'm a bit more gung-ho about frames although the steel one with the crack on the underneath of the down tube just behind the headtube was replaced ASAP. I rode the one with the cracked seat tube (just above the BB) for a while before it got replaced. Didn't have any choice with the one which snapped in two - under duress I should add as I'd just hit the side of a car at >40mph

 

[mickle]

You only have to look at the spindly front suspension struts of an F1 car slowing from 180mph to know what carbon fibre composites are capable of.

I crushed the top of the steerer on my SID Black Box fork last year. No one's 'fault', but a failure of FSA - the stem manufacturer and RockShox, the fork manufacturer, to identify the problem of interface between their two products.

 

[Rohloff_Brompton_Rider]

Somebody needs to

Get out there and ride. Stop worrying. Steel rusts, alloy falls to bits, and carbon fibre melts in the sun.

I knew my rear rim was on it's way out, when it exploded going round a roundabout I thought, 'oh bugger' time for a new one.

easy to say. i was of the same opinion..... knocked unconscious, a broken eye socket and fractured wrist later.....i KNOW carbon can fail catastrophically, my bikes are always repaired regardless of cost and i check meticulously every week, so i KNOW there was nothing to see on my bike.....IT STILL BROKE and it ****in hurt.

so no, common sense does not prevail and never can with cf. giant and trek both recommend changing their forks regularly (every 5000 miles iirc), so even the manufacturers are suspect of their own products.

good business model though, sell something, then tell 'em they need to buy ****ing expensive parts every couple of years.

 

[Rohloff_Brompton_Rider]

You only have to look at the spindly front suspension struts of an F1 car slowing from 180mph to know what carbon fibre composites are capable of.

I crushed the top of the steerer on my SID Black Box fork last year. No one's 'fault', but a failure of FSA - the stem manufacturer and RockShox, the fork manufacturer, to identify the problem of interface between their two products.

listen we all know cf is strong, that's not the issue. the issue is that when cf is broken or on it's way put, there is no way for mere mortals to know, and when cf fails it's instantaneous complete failure with no warning. that's all people are saying, we all know it's better than steel, alloy blah blah blah. but no other material used for bikes hides it's problems quite like cf.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

listen we all know cf is strong, that's not the issue. the issue is that when cf is broken or on it's way put, there is no way for mere mortals to know, and when cf fails it's instantaneous complete failure with no warning. that's all people are saying, we all know it's better than steel, alloy blah blah blah. but no other material used for bikes hides it's problems quite like cf.

I think the issue is that yes, carbon's strong, astonishingly so - in the plane you design it to be strong in (cf F1 front struts) but put a stress on it from an "unexpected" direction, as it were, and all of a sudden it's not a very strong material at all.

 

[PK99]

I mean, how many pros are still riding their race bikes once they retire - not many of the ones I've met.

how many pros are still riding the frame they rode lase season?

 

[gb155]

easy to say. i was of the same opinion..... knocked unconscious, a broken eye socket and fractured wrist later.....i KNOW carbon can fail catastrophically, my bikes are always repaired regardless of cost and i check meticulously every week, so i KNOW there was nothing to see on my bike.....IT STILL BROKE and it ****in hurt.

so no, common sense does not prevail and never can with cf. giant and trek both recommend changing their forks regularly (every 5000 miles iirc), so even the manufacturers are suspect of their own products.

good business model though, sell something, then tell 'em they need to buy ****ing expensive parts every couple of years.

5k miles ? That's almost 3 new forks per year !!!!!

 

[Globalti]

Blimey Shaun, you managed to get Craig to stop talking?

Seriously though he is a top bloke and I would respect whatever he says. I have a Global Ti frame made by (for) him and it's excellent.

I think that people are worried about catastrophic failure with carbon but I really don't believe carbon is any worse or better than steel or ali.

 

[snailracer]

You only have to look at the spindly front suspension struts of an F1 car slowing from 180mph to know what carbon fibre composites are capable of...

Do you think an F1 car is as reliable and durable as, say, a Ford Focus?

...I crushed the top of the steerer on my SID Black Box fork last year. No one's 'fault', but a failure of FSA - the stem manufacturer and RockShox, the fork manufacturer, to identify the problem of interface between their two products.

Pure design fault. I've been banging on about how CF stuff is designed by people who might not really know what they're doing, you've just provided a classic example. If a fork or stem won't work with other standard parts, they should have made it a different size so no-one could accidentally mix them up. Except they didn't, because they didn't know it wouldn't work - they designed it wrong and their testing failed to identify it.

 

[Hip Priest]

I like the motoring analogy. A contemporary F1 car costs around £3m, but nobody would expect to drive it daily in all weathers for years without anything going wrong. Ditto with high-end carbon racing bikes.

They're built for short term performance, not long term sturdiness, so they need constant TLC to stay in tip top condition.

 

[snailracer]

I like the motoring analogy. A contemporary F1 car costs around £3m, but nobody would expect to drive it daily in all weathers for years without anything going wrong. Ditto with high-end carbon racing bikes.

They're built for short term performance, not long term sturdiness, so they need constant TLC to stay in tip top condition.

Unlike the motoring analogy, an F1 team won't sell one of their cars to any Tom, Dick or Harry who walks into a high street shop.