Does nipple length matter??

[bobg]

There, now I've got your attention
I'm just about to build a couple of wheels for an old Pashley Roadster using Mavic A119 rims with a heavy Sturmey Archer hub brake on the front and a Sturmey Archer 3 speed hub with Coaster brake on the back. I was planning on 2mm stainless Swiss DT Champion spokes (laced 3x) but before I order them I'd be grateful for any advice on nipple length... 12mm, 14mm or 16mm Does the weight of the hub influence the nipple length/strength, or are the longer nipples purely designed for use with double skinned rims? BTW would you rely on Mavics ERD of 607mm??

Thanks

 

[Scilly Suffolk]

According to Roger Musson's wheel building book, longer nipples are only needed for deeper rims and don't affect the strength of the build.

He is quite clear that you should always measure the ERD yourself and not trust the manufacturer: ERD means different things to different rim makers.

 

[bobg]

Thanks Jimmy, I hoped that would be the case. I needed to be sure about the nipple length that I'd need to use use for the build in order to use Roger Mussons method of measuring ERD ( 2x200mm spokes, correct nipples and a ruler etc ) You'd think rim makers could agree about what ERD means given that lacing the spokes is a pretty fundamental requirement for a wheel

 

[lay]

Theirs various thickness's too - pain in the ass !

 

[bobg]

Bugger, glad you mentioned that before I ordered them. Can anyone elaborate? It's easy to measure the spoke hole drilling but the actual nipple diameter doesn't feature in ads etc?

 

[bobg]

Are you sure about that lay. I can only see reference to the appropriate spoke diameter ( 2mm etc ) the nipple length ( 12mm etc) and the distance between the flats ( to help identify the proper size spoke key ) There seems to be charts for different nipple "round " diameters to cater for different size rim drillings for motorbikes but none for bicycles. I've just checked a few spokes from my jar of spare ones and they seem all the same, or is it just a coincidence?

 

[Scilly Suffolk]

I've been through Roger's book again and can find no reference to different thickness nipples; I've also checked other sources and drawn a blank.

I'm only a beginner where wheel building is concerned, but unless Lay can elaborate I think he's mistaken.

 

[spandex]

2mm nipples are the right ones for that rim and just go for the 12mm long there is no need for longer ones.

Two more things.
1st
All SA hubs old and new have 2.5mm holes in the flange which are made for 2.34mm (13g) spokes so using 2mm (14g) spokes will leave you with a 0.5mm gap which in the wheel building world is not good at all! As most of spokes that brake at the hub end of the spoke brake because of them moving in the hole every rotation of the wheel. There is two ways round this problem. 1st use single butted spokes 2.34mm - 2mm (13g - 14g) which are Very strong, or 2nd use brass spoke washers which will take up the play..

2nd
Is that there is 3 different so called charts for bicycle wheels. 1 for the USA, 1 for Europe. and the last one just to mess things up for us is for the UK and the rest of the World!!!

I found this out the hard way when I was shipping spokes to Canada and the Spain

 

[spandex]

I've been through Roger's book again and can find no reference to different thickness nipples; I've also checked other sources and drawn a blank.

I'm only a beginner where wheel building is concerned, but unless Lay can elaborate I think he's mistaken.

There are 7 different nipples out there (excluding the fancy ones like Hex and H pull) only 2 of the 7 are used in Bicycles the overs are used on Motorbikes and Cars.

The two are for 2mm and 2.34 spokes.

 

[PpPete]

I hesistate to contradict a pro but arent there also some very skinny doule butted spokes that go 1.8/1.5/1.8 (or 1.8/1.6/1.8) and need a different nipple diameter?
I've never seen one myself - but this thread in another place seems to suggest they used to exist.

 

[Scilly Suffolk]

There are 7 different nipples out there (excluding the fancy ones like Hex and H pull) only 2 of the 7 are used in Bicycles the overs are used on Motorbikes and Cars.

The two are for 2mm and 2.34 spokes.

Thanks Spandex and apologies to Lay.

Are the 2.34mm spokes specialist items (eg off-road or tandems? RM refers to single butted spokes that go from 2mm to 2.3mm, but are thicker towards elbow not the thread.

 

[spandex]

you are 1/2 right Pete. It is just the internal diameter that changes on the nipples for 1.8 spokes. The out side diameter can not go smaller then 3.45mm or they will be limiting the number of rims that they could be used on...

The inside dia's are 1.8mm, 2mm, 2.34mm

 

[spandex]

Thanks Spandex and apologies to Lay.

Are the 2.34mm spokes specialist items (eg off-road or tandems? RM refers to single butted spokes that go from 2mm to 2.3mm, but are thicker towards elbow not the thread.

They are thinker at the elbow and are the best spokes for Touring, Load carrying and Tandems. But they are grate for almost any kind of wheel if you are looking for stronger.

 

[Scilly Suffolk]

Sorry, I'm not making myself clear.

You said that there are two kinds of nipple (for bikes): for 2mm spokes and for 2.34mm spokes.

The only spokes I can find that are thicker than 2mm are the ones I referred to, but they are only thicker at the elbow so wouldn't need a different nipple.

So I wondered if the 2.34mm spokes you mentioned are an obscure type for a specialist application.

 

[I like Skol]

Jimmy, I reckon you have probably already spotted these but I have just ordered DT Alpine III spokes for my latest wheel build. These are 2.34mm at the hub/shoulder, 1.8mm along the central portion and 2mm at the nipple thread. I reckon these are ideal for a wheel with hub/disc brakes where there is more stress at the shoulder.

DT Swiss Alpine III