Upgrading Vintage to 10 speed?

[FOBIL]

Hi All,

I'm renovating my 1980's custom built 753 road frame and am interested in taking advantage of the new 10 speed systems (currently 7 speed). However, I don't want to spend a huge amount of money so:

1. Currently have Campag Victory chainset (52/42) - will this work with a 10 (or 9) speed block?
2. Can I continue to use bog std braze-on downtube friction sfiters or do you need system specific shifters? If so, will they fit on the std braze-on bosses?
3. Can I use the Victory front & rear mechs if I (can I?) change the jockeys wheels to cater for the thinner chain?

Any advice/views will be greatly appreciated. My current view is that if I need to buy a whole new drive chain then I'll stick with the 7 speed set up.

I have to say I think all the new fangled stuff (e.g. combined brakes & flappy paddle shifters) dilutes the aesthetic simplicity and sheer mechanical efficiency of cycling that, to me anyway, is what makes it magical.

FOBIL
(Fat Old Bloke In Lycra)

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

My 2 cents:

The main issue raised by 10 speeds at the back has nothing to do with your friction shifters, it is the width of the hub. All modern 8/9/10/11 road hubs are 130mm wide. It is likely/possible that your existing hub/rear dropouts are 126mm. 4mm doesn't sound very much, but while people generally have no difficulty cold-setting (i.e. bend!) their frames to accommodate wider hubs, it is not advised for frames more exotic than 531 - unfortunately 753 is more exotic than 531. There are reports of such snapped frames...

The rear mech issue is not just the width of the jockey wheel. Vintage rear mechs tend to have wide cages - ime they sometimes foul the spokes when on the largest cog of a modern cassette.

If the frame is 126mm I would stick with 7 speed, if I were you.

 

[Poacher]

I'm inclined to second RecordAceFromNew's advice on sticking with 7 speed, with a couple of provisos. Certainly check the gap between your dropouts, but don't be too disheartened if it's 126 mm, as you can usually spring the frame to take 130mm hubs without the trauma of cold-setting. It's not as easy as having dropouts the correct size for the hub, but I've been using 130 hubs on an old Bob Jackson 531db frame for about twenty years. I'd guess 753 isn't that much more exotic than 531 that it would reject your advances!
You say that you'd like to take advantage of the new 10 speed systems (Campag are up to 11 speed now, and Shimano are introducing them). Why? I think the main advance is in combined brake levers and gear shifters, but I don't currently have these on any of my three road-worthy road bikes (the 8-speed STIs have been removed and I haven't got around to fitting the 8-speed bar-ends yet!), and you too deride the "new fangled stuff ", so I don't see what you have to gain from 9, 10 or 11 speed, and you'd prefer to keep your existing chainset, downtube friction shifters and mechs.

I can't see any problem with using downtube friction changers - they may be antiquated, but they'll happily cope with however many gears you opt for. If you want a wider range of gears (e.g by fitting a wider range cassette - I presume you're upgrading your wheels come what may, if they're currently screw-on block type), you'll need to find out the capacity of your mechs. If you have a short-cage rear mech you may have problems. There's also a potential difficulty with the chainset. AFAIK the Victory chainset uses an obsolete Bolt Circle Diameter of 116 mm, which means you'll have great difficulty in sourcing replacement rings when they wear out ( even Hilary Stone doesn't list them ). You could probably adapt the widely available 110 mm rings at a pinch if you have appropriate tools and metalworking skills, but it might be a better idea to remove the chainset, sell it on ebay or a specialised site and use the proceeds to buy a new chainset - just to wind up totallyfixed I'd suggest a 34-50 compact - check out the Stronglight Impact doubles on offer at Spa Cycles for £50.

 

[smokeysmoo]

+1 for the above. I have actually successfully cold set an alu frame in the past without any problems, (this is generally considered a complete no no), but it proves it's possible so therefore any steel frame would be equally doable, BUT it's certainly not recommended as outlined above. IMO I'd heed the advice regarding 753 tubing.

Knackering a run of the mill 80's alu frame is nothing, fubaring a 753 custom frame is another kettle of fish entirely.

 

[Manonabike]

I'm inclined to second RecordAceFromNew's advice on sticking with 7 speed, with a couple of provisos. Certainly check the gap between your dropouts, but don't be too disheartened if it's 126 mm, as you can usually spring the frame to take 130mm hubs without the trauma of cold-setting. It's not as easy as having dropouts the correct size for the hub, but I've been using 130 hubs on an old Bob Jackson 531db frame for about twenty years. I'd guess 753 isn't that much more exotic than 531 that it would reject your advances!
You say that you'd like to take advantage of the new 10 speed systems (Campag are up to 11 speed now, and Shimano are introducing them). Why? I think the main advance is in combined brake levers and gear shifters, but I don't currently have these on any of my three road-worthy road bikes (the 8-speed STIs have been removed and I haven't got around to fitting the 8-speed bar-ends yet!), and you too deride the "new fangled stuff ", so I don't see what you have to gain from 9, 10 or 11 speed, and you'd prefer to keep your existing chainset, downtube friction shifters and mechs.

I can't see any problem with using downtube friction changers - they may be antiquated, but they'll happily cope with however many gears you opt for. If you want a wider range of gears (e.g by fitting a wider range cassette - I presume you're upgrading your wheels come what may, if they're currently screw-on block type), you'll need to find out the capacity of your mechs. If you have a short-cage rear mech you may have problems. There's also a potential difficulty with the chainset. AFAIK the Victory chainset uses an obsolete Bolt Circle Diameter of 116 mm, which means you'll have great difficulty in sourcing replacement rings when they wear out ( even Hilary Stone doesn't list them ). You could probably adapt the widely available 110 mm rings at a pinch if you have appropriate tools and metalworking skills, but it might be a better idea to remove the chainset, sell it on ebay or a specialised site and use the proceeds to buy a new chainset - just to wind up totallyfixed I'd suggest a 34-50 compact - check out the Stronglight Impact doubles on offer at Spa Cycles for £50.

I have been doing just that for a number of years. I found that after a while it gets easier and easier to spring the dropouts apart.

 

[FOBIL]

All

Thanks for the advice, gratefully received. My 753 frame has indeed 126 spacing so I guess I'll be sticking with 7 speeds.

However, I also have a late '80s (?) Hardisty hand built frame in 531 Comp which also needs renovating and it has 130 spacing so is more of a possibility. Lots of food for thought. Good feedback from Manonabike ref the chainset - hadn't thought of that obsolesence aspect so the Hardisty might get a new Stronglight compact (but I do like Campag stuff).

Anybody got any views on the Veloce groupset?

 

[smokeysmoo]

Anybody got any views on the Veloce groupset?

I fitted Veloce black on a winter bike I built earlier this year, and TBH I really didn't like it, but to be fair I've always used Shimano and just didn't get on with the thumb shifters, and IMO the shifting felt quite agricultural.

I also managed to bend the big ring too after a couple of weeks. No idea how as I've never bent a ring before in my life, and the Stronglight one I replaced it with was still perfect when I sold the bike, so perhaps Campag are having them made from cheese.

Lastly, the BB spline, (Power Torque IIRC?), is just ridiculous. You need a special puller to remove the chainset once it's fitted, which is just mental when consider you you can split a Hollowtech II one with just an allen wrench. Even BB30, (which I wouldn't have given me TBH), can be stripped with a single allen wrench as well. Power Torque, (or whatever the feck they call it), is a bad oversight by Campagnolo in terms of the DIY bike mechanic IMO.

Rant over

 

[Manonabike]

All

Thanks for the advice, gratefully received. My 753 frame has indeed 126 spacing so I guess I'll be sticking with 7 speeds.

However, I also have a late '80s (?) Hardisty hand built frame in 531 Comp which also needs renovating and it has 130 spacing so is more of a possibility. Lots of food for thought. Good feedback from Manonabike ref the chainset - hadn't thought of that obsolesence aspect so the Hardisty might get a new Stronglight compact (but I do like Campag stuff).

Anybody got any views on the Veloce groupset?

If I'm not mistaken 130mm spacing was introduced in the 90's

 

[FOBIL]

I'm inclined to second RecordAceFromNew's advice on sticking with 7 speed, with a couple of provisos. Certainly check the gap between your dropouts, but don't be too disheartened if it's 126 mm, as you can usually spring the frame to take 130mm hubs without the trauma of cold-setting. It's not as easy as having dropouts the correct size for the hub, but I've been using 130 hubs on an old Bob Jackson 531db frame for about twenty years. I'd guess 753 isn't that much more exotic than 531 that it would reject your advances!
You say that you'd like to take advantage of the new 10 speed systems (Campag are up to 11 speed now, and Shimano are introducing them). Why? I think the main advance is in combined brake levers and gear shifters, but I don't currently have these on any of my three road-worthy road bikes (the 8-speed STIs have been removed and I haven't got around to fitting the 8-speed bar-ends yet!), and you too deride the "new fangled stuff ", so I don't see what you have to gain from 9, 10 or 11 speed, and you'd prefer to keep your existing chainset, downtube friction shifters and mechs.

I can't see any problem with using downtube friction changers - they may be antiquated, but they'll happily cope with however many gears you opt for. If you want a wider range of gears (e.g by fitting a wider range cassette - I presume you're upgrading your wheels come what may, if they're currently screw-on block type), you'll need to find out the capacity of your mechs. If you have a short-cage rear mech you may have problems. There's also a potential difficulty with the chainset. AFAIK the Victory chainset uses an obsolete Bolt Circle Diameter of 116 mm, which means you'll have great difficulty in sourcing replacement rings when they wear out ( even Hilary Stone doesn't list them ). You could probably adapt the widely available 110 mm rings at a pinch if you have appropriate tools and metalworking skills, but it might be a better idea to remove the chainset, sell it on ebay or a specialised site and use the proceeds to buy a new chainset - just to wind up totallyfixed I'd suggest a 34-50 compact - check out the Stronglight Impact doubles on offer at Spa Cycles for £50.

Hi Poacher,
Thanks for all the advice, sorry |I got you confused with Manonabke the other day! Have you used the Stronlight Impact?
Cheers

 

[PatrickPending]

Hi Poacher,
Thanks for all the advice, sorry |I got you confused with Manonabke the other day! Have you used the Stronlight Impact?
Cheers

I've used two of the adformentioned 34/50 stronglight impact chain sets - on both commuting bikes - they work well.

 

[Poacher]

Hi FOBIL,
Short answer is yes.
Longer answer is that I bought a rather nice Holdsworth (probably early 80's) a couple of years ago, but found the gearing a bit on the high side. The chainset was a 144 BCD, so I couldn't fit anything lower than the 42/52 chainrings which came with it. The 7-speed rear cluster was in good nick but was 12-23, giving a gear range of 49" to 117" - I rode it for a while but found the gears too high for an overweight 59 year old! Spa had the Impact chainset at £50 so I went for it. Gearing is now a slightly friendlier 40" to 112", which allows me to get up most of the hills round these parts (I try to avoid the chevronned ones!). The chainset runs true, so changing is trouble-free, and the rings seem pretty durable. Stronglight isn't a fashionable brand, but I've always found it reliable. My ancient Bob Jackson commuter has had a Stronglight crankset for about 20 years, but the 86 BCD rings are getting hard to get hold of nowadays (more's the pity, as they allowed a wide touring range) and when stocks run out I'd have no hesitation in getting an Impact to replace it.