Tools required to do bottom bracket on Wisp?

[w00hoo_kent]

I should probably just PM @raleighnut but I'll ask it generally.

We have a couple of old Raleighs, I'm guessing mid 80's. A Wisp and a Something. Both quite tired and used as 'pub bikes' for when we need to ride something we could cope with having stolen. So they've been used in Amsterdam and the Wisp is currently tooling around London today.

The bottom bracket on the Wisp could do with an overhaul, it's all a bit Dutch (wobbly and noisy) the last time it did this I popped it in to my LBS who tightened it all up and when I asked about the tool needed to do the work myself was particularly unhelpful saying it was expensive, hard to find and there was no point in me having it as it would need to be done so rarely. This wasn't helped by their work going all wobbly again after 15 miles or so of riding.

So, as part of the reason for having the old Raleighs was to do a bit of bike maintenance on them, I'd really like to know what I need to own in order to do the work. I've tried (some months ago) reading Sheldon Brown's site on it, but it all just confused me and made my head hurt (plus reminded me why I like modern 'just use this' bikes) so I'm hoping someone can give me a nice simpletons explanation of 'just buy this' or failing that exactly what I need to measure to work out what to buy (but I'd really prefer to avoid measuring anything).

I'm presuming I'm going to strip it apart, get showered with ball bearings, decide they are old and tired and go and buy more ball bearings, then do the reverse and curse a lot about getting tightnesses right (this is based on my experience of rebuilding an axle).

The bikes, in case it helps...

 

[Dogtrousers]

I'll let @raleighnut provide the details, but I'm going to bet that this is part of the answer:

You won't get showered with them. They'll be stuck in cups by gunk and may even be in cages.
Like this

 

[mrandmrspoves]

Ok - hard to know what type of BB you have as this would be visible from the other side of the bike. Cotterless crank set - almost certainly a square taper.
If you have an old loose
type with separate bearings and axle, it can be replaced with a modern cassette BB. A shimano UN55 will cost about £12.
Easy job to do as long as existing parts are not seized. Tools needed, cotter less crank extractor £7, possibly a lock ring tool £5, a BB cartridge tool £10.
You can get cheaper tools - bit they will be poor quality. You can buy more expensive tools, but may not get enough use to justify expense.

 

[Dogtrousers]

Personally I'd just re-grease and reassemble, rather than putting a cartridge in, unless the cups and/or axle are in a genuinely bad way. The cartridge option would require getting the fixed cup out which could be a hell of a horrible job (Sheldon has advice on making a tool for this).

 

[w00hoo_kent]

The other thing with fitting a UN55 is that they come in 2 different thread types and 16 different size combinations (having just had a look on CRC) so my capacity for getting the wrong thing is huge. And we haven't got to 'fixed cup removal' yet... Presuming the bikes (when I come to doing the one that is yet to go Dutch) are around 30 years old, and at least one of them was living in a garden prior to being on the verge of living in a skip, I think it's a good bet bits are seized.

 

[w00hoo_kent]

Not that the idea of going away from cone and bearings isn't tempting, these bikes are never going to pretend to be original condition while we own them and I do remember the faff of doing the axle (how was I supposed to know they were 'handed' took me ages to work out I'd put it in the wrong way round which was why nothing lined up so I had to do the whole job twice and then getting it almost but not quite tight enough, argh!) so 'just screwing in a replacement' is quite tempting.

I just kind of suspect it won't be 'just screwing in a replacement'.

 

[mrandmrspoves]

Old bikes are rarely about just unscrewing the old and screwing in the new. Yes you may need a fixed cup spanner too - or improvise your own. If the BB has play in it and has already been adjusted, my guess is it is worn to a point where a re grease and new bearings will not work. Yes lots of different cartridges - but you almost certainly need 68mm and axle length will be the same as what you are replacing (but check it is not asymmetric with both ends being different.

 

[roadrash]

i think raleigh threads would be different too 16 tpi i think, not the usual 14 tpi ,

 

[midlife]

If you are taking the cup out of one side to clean, regrease etc then all you need is a hammer / screwdriver to get the locking off and a pin spanner to remove the cup (assembly the reverse)

Assuming you can take the cranks off....

Shaun

 

[w00hoo_kent]

The chainring side crank should be fine, I had to replace it a year ago when it was bent during my left hook incident. Other side, no idea.

 

[raleighnut]

I'll let @raleighnut provide the details, but I'm going to bet that this is part of the answer:

You won't get showered with them. They'll be stuck in cups by gunk and may even be in cages.
Like this

That one is a bit (well a lot) shinier than mine but that's the spanner for the adjustable side, or a hammer and drift. TBH I've very often left the drive side cup in Provided that the shaft is in good nick and the bearings and retainer cage are not chewed up (cleaning the gunk out of there is one of the times when a jet washer comes in very useful)
I'd always replace those bearings and cages whilst I'd got it apart and reassemble with plenty of grease as long as the angular contact bearing track on the shaft is evenly shiny and has no pitting but if the shaft is damaged then I would scrap the whole BB (modern shafts are no where near as well manufactured or of as high quality steel and the case hardening is crap) in fact 3 of my old Raleighs now run Hollowtech 11 cranks (a Deore triple, 105 double and an Ultegra triple) mainly cos it is getting hard to find decent quality square taper cranksets and I find Shimano 'sealed unit' BBs to be abysmally poor quality and each needing all sorts of weird and wonderful splined tools to install/remove them (and then the bearings cannot even be adjusted)
I've still got 4 bikes running that type of BB though but when they get to the point of needing drastic rebuilds they will probably end up with external bearing cranks cos at least with those it is just a matter of undoing the non drive side and taking it off (no puller kit needed) sliding the shaft out and unscrewing the external bearings and putting new uns in. (easy peasy)
1 trick I do use when servicing angular contact square taper crank BBs is to mark the flat in line with the crankarm with a file/hacksaw (just a little nick on the end of the shaft after I've removed one of the arms) so that when I put it all back together I can rotate the arms back 1 flat on the shaft to move the maximum stress/wear point on the shaft to a new position to (hopefully) even out the wear on it.
As for getting the fixed cup off I let John at Bob Warners use his big proper spanner/tool to unscrew it, I've skinned far too many knuckles trying to shift them without the proper kit and as long as I only take the bare frame in he is quite happy to 'whip it out' for me.

EDIT- As usual the best advice is from the late great Sheldon.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...e5KICIzKhbH657aiM6xB-5A&bvm=bv.96952980,d.bGQ

 

[raleighnut]

I should probably just PM @raleighnut but I'll ask it generally.

We have a couple of old Raleighs, I'm guessing mid 80's. A Wisp and a Something. Both quite tired and used as 'pub bikes' for when we need to ride something we could cope with having stolen. So they've been used in Amsterdam and the Wisp is currently tooling around London today.

The bottom bracket on the Wisp could do with an overhaul, it's all a bit Dutch (wobbly and noisy) the last time it did this I popped it in to my LBS who tightened it all up and when I asked about the tool needed to do the work myself was particularly unhelpful saying it was expensive, hard to find and there was no point in me having it as it would need to be done so rarely. This wasn't helped by their work going all wobbly again after 15 miles or so of riding.

So, as part of the reason for having the old Raleighs was to do a bit of bike maintenance on them, I'd really like to know what I need to own in order to do the work. I've tried (some months ago) reading Sheldon Brown's site on it, but it all just confused me and made my head hurt (plus reminded me why I like modern 'just use this' bikes) so I'm hoping someone can give me a nice simpletons explanation of 'just buy this' or failing that exactly what I need to measure to work out what to buy (but I'd really prefer to avoid measuring anything).

I'm presuming I'm going to strip it apart, get showered with ball bearings, decide they are old and tired and go and buy more ball bearings, then do the reverse and curse a lot about getting tightnesses right (this is based on my experience of rebuilding an axle).

The bikes, in case it helps...

BTW love the 'mixte' frame Wisp? but the diamond frame bike looks a lot like a SBDU frame to me, could be a really nice bike and those 'shortie' mudguards are really rare now (they don't keep you dry but they keep the road 'crap' off yer brake pivots)

 

[w00hoo_kent]

As for getting the fixed cup off I let John at Bob Warners use his big proper spanner/tool to unscrew it, I've skinned far too many knuckles trying to shift them without the proper kit and as long as I only take the bare frame in he is quite happy to 'whip it out' for me.

This just makes me wish I had an LBS in Kent (or I guess accessible London) that did lots of work on old bikes. The Sheldon stuff about removing the fixed cup sounds sensible and I have all the bits laying around to set up a long bolt to go through it. As with all the Sheldon stuff, now I only need to make sure I get my lefts and rights correct 'cause it could be either...

BTW love the 'mixte' frame Wisp? but the diamond frame bike looks a lot like a SBDU frame to me, could be a really nice bike and those 'shortie' mudguards are really rare now (they don't keep you dry but they keep the road 'crap' off yer brake pivots)

We got the mixte first, yes a Wisp, I should probably try and get a crisper picture. We've stuck modern brake pads and tyres on it to make it a little less scary although it could probably still do with a brake overhaul. Along with the crank it had a new back wheel after the left hook incident, and the pedals got changed as one was toast. The bottom bracket is very wobbly so really needs doing.

It sounds like if I can work out what to order putting a new, modern, bottom bracket in is the way to go.

The diamond frame was in a mates garden because he'd run out of shed room and was destined for the tip so was a freebie. He'd stuck modern bars on it but aside from that it's probably not been changed. Its fine to ride but is completely missing one of the spokes at the rear which means the rear wheel isn't very true. Aside from that it's all usable. I'll try and check the serial number at the end of the weekend in case it's something interesting (apparently I look on the fork steerer).

 

[Dogtrousers]

It sounds like if I can work out what to order putting a new, modern, bottom bracket in is the way to go.

Fixed cup removal ahoy! Don't say I didn't warn you.

I've got a very lightly used cup and cone BB in my garage if you think those spares might help (from a Dawes) that's yours for free. Although the reason I have it is because I replaced it with a sealed unit - so I obviously don't always take my own advice.

And actually in that case the fixed cup came out really easily (so I'm crying wolf as well as being a hypocrite ). I just used a gurt big adjustable wrench which I bolted in place with a bolt through wehere the axle was and some big washers to stop it slipping off. (Sort of Sheldon-lite)

We got the mixte first, yes a Wisp, I should probably try and get a crisper picture.

Yes you should. (Tuts and wags finger).

 

[raleighnut]

This just makes me wish I had an LBS in Kent (or I guess accessible London) that did lots of work on old bikes. The Sheldon stuff about removing the fixed cup sounds sensible and I have all the bits laying around to set up a long bolt to go through it. As with all the Sheldon stuff, now I only need to make sure I get my lefts and rights correct 'cause it could be either...



We got the mixte first, yes a Wisp, I should probably try and get a crisper picture. We've stuck modern brake pads and tyres on it to make it a little less scary although it could probably still do with a brake overhaul. Along with the crank it had a new back wheel after the left hook incident, and the pedals got changed as one was toast. The bottom bracket is very wobbly so really needs doing.

It sounds like if I can work out what to order putting a new, modern, bottom bracket in is the way to go.

The diamond frame was in a mates garden because he'd run out of shed room and was destined for the tip so was a freebie. He'd stuck modern bars on it but aside from that it's probably not been changed. Its fine to ride but is completely missing one of the spokes at the rear which means the rear wheel isn't very true. Aside from that it's all usable. I'll try and check the serial number at the end of the weekend in case it's something interesting (apparently I look on the fork steerer).

There should be a number under the BB shell on the frame stamped into the steel. (flip the bike over, but it could be hidden by a plastic cable guide)

EDIT- It is the Raleigh stamped into the cappings at the top of the seat stays that makes me think it my be different to the 'run of the mill' bikes.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...r16ZlKLBw-XQvXZRZI7SRxA&bvm=bv.96952980,d.ZGU