Ti crack

[Ian H]

My Qoroz fixed frame broke recently: a crack appeared on the nearside chainstay. Not unusual with Ti frames. It was new in 2015 (I had it made for PBP that year) so it's not done too badly). Searching for repairers, a friend came across Ted James Designs. Ted build frames in Ti and steel. He sleeved both the stays and made a really neat job of it. I've just built it back up, treated it to a new chain. Road test next.

 

[Milkfloat]

Looks a neat job - is there a ball park figure on what something like that costs?

 

[ianrauk]

Ian, can I ask as to the cost? Thanks.

 

[Ian H]

Ian, can I ask as to the cost? Thanks.

He charged me £300.

 

[ianrauk]

He charged me £300.

To get a cherised bike back into use I think that's a bargain and something for me to think about if any of my Ti frames are to fail. Though, my Van Nich has a lifetime warranty, my PX not so.

 

[bonzobanana]

If he has sleeved both chainstays he clearly thinks the other was at risk of failing but my concern if the frame is heavily fatigued you could have a fracture maybe somewhere else like the seat stays, seat tube by the bottom bracket or maybe at the top of the seat tube. All the normal places where frames especially lightweight frames fail. If it fails again somewhere else within 2 years I personally wouldn't repair it again. A quick look shows its likely a Taiwanese frame.

I see Planet X do a titanium road bike frame with a CF fork for £599 but no horizontal dropout type titanium frames but you could use a chain tensioner but admittedly not ideal.

Sometime ago I watched a few youtube videos of bike shops in the Phillipines and they pay about £80 for a bike that would be £200-300 over here and did see a titanium mountain bike which worked out at around £350.

 

[Ajax Bay]

If he has sleeved both chainstays he clearly thinks the other was at risk of failing but my concern if the frame is heavily fatigued you could have a fracture maybe somewhere else like the seat stays, seat tube by the bottom bracket or maybe at the top of the seat tube. All the normal places where frames especially lightweight frames fail. If it fails again somewhere else within 2 years I personally wouldn't repair it again. A quick look shows its likely a Taiwanese frame.

I see Planet X do a titanium road bike frame with a CF fork for £599 but no horizontal dropout type titanium frames but you could use a chain tensioner but admittedly not ideal.

Sometime ago I watched a few youtube videos of bike shops in the Phillipines and they pay about £80 for a bike that would be £200-300 over here and did see a titanium mountain bike which worked out at around £350.

I somehow doubt, bonzo, that Ian's bike has a "heavily fatigued" frame: it is only one of his stable so even on his 10000+ miles a year regime the frame is unlikely to have many thousand miles on it in the last 6 years. In addition Ian is a light rider of supreme souplesse and unmatched experience.
The chances of seeing Ian on a 'Planet X' frame are NIL (aka vanishingly small).
I see Qoroz advertise a 'lifetime warranty' on the frame. Did they pay the £300, @Ian H ?

 

[Ian H]

If he has sleeved both chainstays he clearly thinks the other was at risk of failing but my concern if the frame is heavily fatigued you could have a fracture maybe somewhere else like the seat stays, seat tube by the bottom bracket or maybe at the top of the seat tube. All the normal places where frames especially lightweight frames fail. If it fails again somewhere else within 2 years I personally wouldn't repair it again. A quick look shows its likely a Taiwanese frame.

I see Planet X do a titanium road bike frame with a CF fork for £599 but no horizontal dropout type titanium frames but you could use a chain tensioner but admittedly not ideal.

Sometime ago I watched a few youtube videos of bike shops in the Phillipines and they pay about £80 for a bike that would be £200-300 over here and did see a titanium mountain bike which worked out at around £350.

Ted reckons it was a design flaw in making the stays too flattened at that point. I'd agree.
You wouldn't get away with a chain-tensioner on a fixed-wheel because the chain can be under tension in either direction.

The frame is Chinese, designed by Qoroz. They were the only people who could spec horizontal road dropouts.

...
I see Qoroz advertise a 'lifetime warranty' on the frame. Did they pay the £300, @Ian H ?

I was under the impression they'd stopped selling frames. Too late now, but no matter, I'm happy with Ted's repair. If he'd been in business in 2015 I might have got him to make the frame.

 

[bonzobanana]

I somehow doubt, bonzo, that Ian's bike has a "heavily fatigued" frame: it is only one of his stable so even on his 10000+ miles a year regime the frame is unlikely to have many thousand miles on it in the last 6 years. In addition Ian is a light rider of supreme souplesse and unmatched experience.
The chances of seeing Ian on a 'Planet X' frame are NIL (aka vanishingly small).
I see Qoroz advertise a 'lifetime warranty' on the frame. Did they pay the £300, @Ian H ?

I'll admit I'm unsure about titanium fatigue and how it works compared to aluminum. An aluminium frame can start life with 3x the strength compared to end of life when it fails. A few decades ago titanium had the reputation for lasting a lifetime but those were straight gauge or plain gauge tubes. More modern titanium frames have milled or butted tubes and has lowered the weight considerably but also made fatigue a much greater issue.

 

[Ajax Bay]

I'll admit I'm unsure about titanium fatigue and how it works compared to aluminum. . . . A few decades ago titanium had the reputation for lasting a lifetime but those were straight gauge or plain gauge tubes. More modern titanium frames have milled or butted tubes and has lowered the weight considerably but also made fatigue a much greater issue.

How do you know all this? What do you mean by a modern titanium frame: is that a euphemism for more expensive? Since Ti is much lower density than steel, butting saves proportionately less weight (so not 'considerably'). Are you seriously suggesting that designers have accepted greater risk of fatigue in exchange for a few grammes, to the extent that it's an "issue"? Many frame makers give a lifetime warranty on the frame. So did Ian's except Qoroz ceased trading in 2018: lesson: a warranty is dependent on the company staying in business.
Give us a few links where I can learn more
What Ti frame are you riding?
Mine's a Lynskey Viale

 

[GuyBoden]

souplesse

Excellent word, I had to look it up. Nothing to do with pot au feu.

 

[bonzobanana]

How do you know all this? What do you mean by a modern titanium frame: is that a euphemism for more expensive? Since Ti is much lower density than steel, butting saves proportionately less weight (so not 'considerably'). Are you seriously suggesting that designers have accepted greater risk of fatigue in exchange for a few grammes, to the extent that it's an "issue"? Many frame makers give a lifetime warranty on the frame. So did Ian's except Qoroz ceased trading in 2018: lesson: a warranty is dependent on the company staying in business.
Give us a few links where I can learn more
What Ti frame are you riding?
Mine's a Lynskey Viale

It's only what I've read from cycling sites, books and forums over the years but I'll admit I don't know how fatigue works so much with titanium but do know from what I've read that titanium frames have got much lighter compared to when they were all pretty much plain gauge tubes . Butted tubes is definitely about saving weight with reduced lifespan of the frame in fact many instruction manuals like Giant clearly state performance frames have shortened lifespans for the performance gains. Surely that isn't debatable. Making titanium lighter with butted or milled tubes will obviously weaken them. Fatigue works by constant flexing, i.e a frame being used with thinner tubing will be more vulnerable to this. Frame ageing machines that form part of the testing regarding certification are frame flexing machines. It's the same with steel frames. Lifetime warranties are often mis-understood by consumers they are warranties about manufacturing defects i.e. poor welds. They do not guarantee against fair, wear and tear normally. A well used frame with fatigued and fractured tubes is not normally replaced although this depends on the discretion of the manufacturer or importer.

So yes in answer to your question of whether manufacturers are accepting greater fatigue with performance frames I would say 100% yes of course they are and its well documented even stated in manuals. Many titanium frames now are performance frames optimised for low weight with butted and milled tubes. Some of the old classic titanium frames were lighter than steel but not competitive with aluminium but now many titanium frames are in aluminium or even CF weight territory.

This is the text from the Giant manual which I think is dictated from the certification. I mean its all obvious stuff nothing controversial or debatable surely although nothing you would ever get out of a bicycle salesman's lips in the showroom who is trying to upsell you to the more expensive model.

 

[T4tomo]

Hmmm Giant, that well known manufacturer of titanium frames

 

[bonzobanana]

Hmmm Giant, that well known manufacturer of titanium frames

The certification that text comes from includes titanium frames as well as aluminium, steel and CF and the same testing equipment is used for titanium. It's generic text for all performance road bikes. Considering the bike in question has a fatigued seat stay that has fractured in exactly the same way and place as many steel and aluminium frames and the same certification applies seems strange to say the least to make that comment as if somehow a performance titanium frame is somehow excluded to the reality of frame fatigue when this very thread shows it isn't. Just seems to be a childish moronic throwaway comment at best surely.

 

[Venod]

I have had six Ti frames of various weights, the lightest being a Sunday Cycles ( they became Sabbath) it was an extremely light triple butted one, it cracked under the top tube just behind the head tube, I worked with a very good Ti welder who welded the crack, I think the bike is still going today, I still have two Ti frames and these were the cheapest of the bunch.