Spoke tension or just spooky spokes?

[schnorb]

Hi all

Sorry this will have probably been asked before and sorry if this post is in the wrong place (newbe).

Im having trouble keeping the spokes tight on the non drive side of my rear wheel. Its seems to become loose after about 20 miles, not all the spokes but enough to cause me to call the other half to come and rescue me.

I have learnt there is a Park tool for checking spoke tension, is there an alternative?

Have re-trued the wheel and all seems ok with the tension on the spokes, both sides feel ok but this is about as far as my wheel building skills go. i dont remember as a younger man ever using a spoke tensioning devise and have never had this trouble before and would appreciate any advise you can give.
Cheap wheels perhaps?
P.S it a road bike back wheel 32 spoke cross laced with a deep ish 20mm rim.

Paul

 

[accountantpete]

Firstly make sure the spokes are not twisting when the nipple is being tightened as they will un-twist straight away when on the road.

If this is ok then


The problem is usually down to incorrect (too loose) tension which I think allows some slight movement of the rim when buffeted on the road.

This means that the spoke loses it's loading and the nipple can work free.

Spoke tension measuring tools are ok if you know what the correct tension should be - I haven't a clue so just use common sense.

I would be tempted to tighten up all the spokes on both sides by 1/8th turn and see if that helps.

Alternatively you can simply get a small bottle of Loctite 242. Undo one nipple 10 turns (for eg), apply a small drop of 242 to the thread and re-tighten the nipple 10 turns. Repeat all the way around.

 

[Nigeyy]

Correctly tensioned spokes will definitely help. But the real problem is how do you know what a correctly tensioned spoke is?

Don't waste your money on a Park Tensiometer. I bought mine when I first started building wheels, as I got fed up with advice such as "pluck the spoke and see if it makes a sound half an octave..." The problem was (is) I'm tone deaf, and I don't know an Octave from Octane. I needed something that I could visually see -a scale, a number, a gradation, etc. However, all the Park Tensiometer really allows you to do is measure relative tension -whether one spoke is more taught than the other -but it still doesn't provide an answer with amount of tension!

First the good news: you could try tensioning up your non-drive side spokes and hopefully the drive side will keep the rim in the same relative position =or not. If the latter, then you'll have to tighten up your drive side spokes. The best piece of advice I can give is to say the spoke shouldn't feel rigid, and use the tension of spokes in a wheel you know is good for a guide.

Now the bad news: one problem you can have with non-drive side spokes loosening is that someone used spoke prep or some kind of lube to build the wheel -while correct tension could solve this problem, I do wonder if the addition of lube could cause the problem to persist. Obviously as a very last resort, but you may need to remove each spoke and clean it if that's the case. Or maybe do this on a spoke by spoke basis of whichever ones are coming loose?

And yes, I rarely use my Park Spoke Tensiometer now -I depend on the feel of the spokes; it's just something you get used to after a time (I know when I first started wheel building I would have sighed heavily and muttered "gee, thanks" in a sarcastic way for that piece of sage advice, but really, it is true).

Anyway, good luck!

Hi all
Sorry this will have probably been asked before and sorry if this post is in the wrong place (newbe).
Paul

 

[schnorb]

Thankyou both for your replies and good advise.

It does seem i have lost my nerve a bit and lost confidence in what im doing!

I see what you mean about locktight or if the nipples have to much lube on them, at least 6 spokes came loose at different points on the wheel and in nearly all cases the nipples had undone to the point that they were about to come off.
I have not ridden the bike since this happened and keep rechecking the tension on the spokes, i have had someone sit on the bike so the wheel is underload and checked the tension then and noted that the spokes under the most load were giving a little as you would expect but not loose.

My concluesion is that the nipples are working loose throu just the movement of the road surface or the fact the roads around here are full of pot holes

My question is should the spokes come loose and i decide to use a locking fluid on them is it possible to do this one at time, how long have you got until the fluid hardens, your advise would be very welcome.
They are cheap wheels and the plan was to use them for the winter and the upgrade so in a way im using them to learn more about wheel building.
I have a memory that my dad or grandad used linseed oil as a lube! i think it sets hard after a short time and locks the nipples?

Paul

 

[Davidc]

It's unfortunate if Nigeyy cant hear the ping from spokes, but you probably can (AFAIK only about 1 in 10,000 people is actually tone deaf). If you have a way of generating it then the advice I had years ago was go for the G above middle C. An alternative if you have a generator is go for a frequency about 400 Hz. If there's another bike around with newish good wheels just ping the spokes and go for about the same as that one. That's always done me well for round profile spokes, the blade ones must make a resonant ping but it's possibly very different.

Unless you're dealing with high performance wheels IME there's no need to be fussy, remember that on the back wheel the drive side needs to be tighter than the non drive, and the spokes are shorter, so they make a higher ping. If you are into high performance wheels then it IS important to get it right. I've only dealt with very ordinary rims so no problems there. (I had some high performance ones once but let a real wheelbuilder service those).

When you first get into adjusting and later building wheels you will probably be surprised how high the spoke tension needs to be. As long as you don't go mad and exceed the rim's maximum then the thing to worry about is too low a tension not too high, as low lets wheels bend, breaks spokes, and just doesn't work.

Once you get used to the ping sound you can just do it, and all the rims I've adjusted are very tolerant of anything except low tension. A real wheelbuilder would probably disagree, and if you want to be absolutely sure about the way your wheels are adjusted that's who you need to see!

edit: If you use 3M spoke reflectors or still have the plastic clip ones from new then you need to take them off before adjusting wheels.

My question is should the spokes come loose and i decide to use a locking fluid on them is it possible to do this one at time, how long have you got until the fluid hardens, your advise would be very welcome.


Paul

I asked the question a few weeks back about what lube. (I'd run out of the one I had in a bottle, after about 40 years use). The concensus was anything, and 3 in 1 worked.

If the spokes are tight enough then IME the nipples just stay put without locking compound.

 

[accountantpete]

i have had someone sit on the bike so the wheel is underload and checked the tension then and noted that the spokes under the most load were giving a little as you would expect but not loose.

There should be no movement as the other spokes should prevent the rim from altering shape - which suggests that overall tension is the problem

My concluesion is that the nipples are working loose throu just the movement of the road surface or the fact the roads around here are full of pot holes

My question is should the spokes come loose and i decide to use a locking fluid on them is it possible to do this one at time, how long have you got until the fluid hardens, your advise would be very welcome.

With 242 you just leave it overnight. You could use linseed oil bit I think that hardens over a longer time frame.

Paul

 

[schnorb]

Thankyou accountpete, nigeyy and Davidc.


The only wheels i have got to compare with are Shimano R501 that have bladed spokes, my sons bike im new to road bikes been riding mtb then hybrides.

I have been looking at wheel builders sites and the way some of these people suggest testing the wheel seems quite Brutel! but i seem to of been tighting too loose and have been lucky not to of distroyed the wheel.

I have squeezed the parallel spokes together on both sides of the wheel and listened for any noise from the nipples or twisting in the spokes, when adjusting spokes i tighten them slightly past my intended amount and then a little turn back to stop spokes from twisting. By doing this and checking the noise they make i think i have got to a point where im happy to try the wheel on the bike, there is no more noise from the wheel now when squeezing spokes

I have again load tested the wheel and the spokes seem to make the same noise under load or not so i think im getting close and the wheel is still dead true. I think i been worried about over-tightening and breaking spokes but from what i've read that seems to come from spokes being loose. I find small amounts of tighening quartar turn half turn at a time seem to brin

If they come loose again its going to be the Lbs or the loctite!! You may think im mad trying to do this myself but pride and wanting to be able to do this drive me on

 

[User6179]

Not read whole thread so apologies if been mention but i had loose spokes on a wheel i had hand built , I would tighten the spoke that came loose then another one would go loose , it was just the same 2or 3 spokes that would loosen , eventually I sussed out they were not unwinding as such they were popping off under pressure , they were either crossed threaded or wrong sized nipples .

 

[Nigeyy]

Pre-stressing can be interesting! Good luck with your endeavours -I know where you are coming from with the trying to do it yourself bit.

Thankyou accountpete, nigeyy and Davidc.
If they come loose again its going to be the Lbs or the loctite!! You may think im mad trying to do this myself but pride and wanting to be able to do this drive me on

 

[Nigeyy]

Well I have to say for the musically challenged (me! and OK, I was joking about the tone deaf bit, though my own mother would argue a case for that) that's the kind of advice I was talking about And unfortunately I don't have a generator hanging around either.....

Interesting about the frequency though -wouldn't non-butted, single and double butted spokes have different frequencies? What about slightly different materials? Length/thickness of spoke?

It's unfortunate if Nigeyy cant hear the ping from spokes, but you probably can (AFAIK only about 1 in 10,000 people is actually tone deaf). If you have a way of generating it then the advice I had years ago was go for the G above middle C. An alternative if you have a generator is go for a frequency about 400 Hz.