Spoke and nipple choice?

[Sore Thumb]

Having a new wheel built for bikepacking. Son Dynamo on a Stand Flow mk3 26" wheel.

Thought the choice of spoke and nipples would be easy. Always had double butted on brass nipples but looking on sapims web site there seems to be more to it than meets the eye. Now I'm not sure what I should choose.

Ive had a look and there is now different double butted spokes to choose from

http://www.sapim.be/spokes/butted

Super spokes
Laser
D-light
Race
Force
Strong

What to choose??



I always thought that brass was the best choice even though they are heavier. Now reading sapims site regarding aluminium nipples, I'm not so sure.

Brass

Since years brass nipples had been the optimal standard. Brass brings less friction and the nickel plating brings a good corrosion resistance against environmental impact. We advise to use them on all standard wheels.

Aluminium

In the past, aluminum nipples had only one positive argument, the weight. All other features like corrosion resistance, friction, stiffness were specific to brass nipples. This changed in the last years drastically. All our aluminum nipples are now anodized. Salt spray tests showed better results than brass nickel plated nipples. You can choose 7 different colors. We had been able to reduce friction with a special coating. As an effect you don’t need to oil or grease the nipple like you should with the brass version. For the last three years, Sapim has used the 7075 material and have additional strength added by the heat treatment T6. Alloy nipples are now stronger than brass. Aluminum nipples are more expensive but for sure much better than brass. For those who care about weight, special colors and quality, aluminum nipple is advised.


So what to choose.

What would be your suggestions?





This is my bike at the moment


https://flic.kr/p/EfjwZ5

 

[e-rider]

you are being sucked in to marketing BS.
DT Swiss spokes are much better than Sapim in my experience and brass nipples are stronger - end of!

 

[raleighnut]

I'd stick with Brass/nickelled myself.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

SAPIM Race. Brass nipples. Race is SAPIM's standard 2.0 - 1.8 - 2.0mm spoke, the equivalent to DT's Competition.

The difference between SAPIM and DT is subtle. The SAPIM double-butted spoke has a longer shank (i.e. shorter butts) than DT's. This makes the spoke lighter but more durable.

Both DT and SAPIM (like all spokes) require stress relieving in order to be durable.

There is no other difference and I challenge all the DT groupies to point out any differences. 15 years ago I started using SAPIM, and occasionally DT when I could not find suitable stock, in my wheelbuilding business and we offered a lifelong guarantee on our spokes. 13 000 wheels later and we've had two broken spokes from fatigue. Yes, that's right. 2. Obviously the secret was 60% in the technique and 40%in the spoke quality, but it illustrates that there's nothing wrong with SAPIM. I have a feeling that Taiwanese companies like Pillar are up there in the quality stakes as well.

 

[Spoked Wheels]

Having a new wheel built for bikepacking. Son Dynamo on a Stand Flow mk3 26" wheel.

Thought the choice of spoke and nipples would be easy. Always had double butted on brass nipples but looking on sapims web site there seems to be more to it than meets the eye. Now I'm not sure what I should choose.

Ive had a look and there is now different double butted spokes to choose from

http://www.sapim.be/spokes/butted

Super spokes
Laser
D-light
Race
Force
Strong

What to choose??



I always thought that brass was the best choice even though they are heavier. Now reading sapims site regarding aluminium nipples, I'm not so sure.

Brass

Since years brass nipples had been the optimal standard. Brass brings less friction and the nickel plating brings a good corrosion resistance against environmental impact. We advise to use them on all standard wheels.

Aluminium

In the past, aluminum nipples had only one positive argument, the weight. All other features like corrosion resistance, friction, stiffness were specific to brass nipples. This changed in the last years drastically. All our aluminum nipples are now anodized. Salt spray tests showed better results than brass nickel plated nipples. You can choose 7 different colors. We had been able to reduce friction with a special coating. As an effect you don’t need to oil or grease the nipple like you should with the brass version. For the last three years, Sapim has used the 7075 material and have additional strength added by the heat treatment T6. Alloy nipples are now stronger than brass. Aluminum nipples are more expensive but for sure much better than brass. For those who care about weight, special colors and quality, aluminum nipple is advised.


So what to choose.

What would be your suggestions?





This is my bike at the moment


https://flic.kr/p/EfjwZ5

Race spokes and brass nipples. If going for DT Swiss then Competition spokes and brass nipples.

 

[andrew_s]

Ive had a look and there is now different double butted spokes to choose from

There are also the CX-ray spokes, in the aero section, if you are feeling rich.

Salt spray tests showed better results than brass nickel plated nipples.

Whilst I might accept that for testing of the nipples, in real life, the nipples get scratched against rim/eyelet/spoke key, and maybe other things, and the anodising could get damaged. Once that happens, salt corrosion has a way in.

I'd go for DT Comp & brass.
The last pair of wheels I built & rebuilt with Sapim had the spokes breaking in the middle after a while (spokes from more than one batch)

 

[Tim Hall]

Does the nickel plating on a brass nipple serve any purpose, other than aesthetic?

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Aluminium

In the past, aluminum nipples had only one positive argument, the weight. All other features like corrosion resistance, friction, stiffness were specific to brass nipples. This changed in the last years drastically. All our aluminum nipples are now anodized. Salt spray tests showed better results than brass nickel plated nipples. You can choose 7 different colors. We had been able to reduce friction with a special coating. As an effect you don’t need to oil or grease the nipple like you should with the brass version. For the last three years, Sapim has used the 7075 material and have additional strength added by the heat treatment T6. Alloy nipples are now stronger than brass. Aluminum nipples are more expensive but for sure much better than brass. For those who care about weight, special colors and quality, aluminum nipple is advised.

Web-site license. Also known as nonsense.

The fact that aluminium nipples are anodized doesn't protect them from salt. The thread is not and cannot be anodized. Faraday shield and all that. Salt water and indeed, just plain water, runs into the threads and corrodes the nipples on the inside. The oxide, which has a large molecular size, builds up on the inside. At first this just prevents the nipple from being turned for fine tuning, but eventually it splits the nipple open with cracks running the length of the nipple.
Strength. Strength is a very easy word to play with. Yes, an aluminium nipple is strong enough to hold the spoke tension. But, traditional ones with a square grip area at the bottom (opposite the head) are not strong enough to be tensioned enough, in many cases. This makes them round off in the spoke spanner. Admittedly newer designs such as the American Classic patented head and plain old proprietary hex nipples accessible only from the outside of the rim, have solved that problem. But it goes further. Aluminium nipples fatigue very quickly. They typically break off in the neck, just before the head starts to flare. This is from cyclical stress. Such a break on a wheel that really works is practically guaranteed.

Brass on the other hand, lasts a lifetime. By lifetime I mean several hundred thousand kilometers. Within that period they remain to a large extent perfectly turnable and serviceable.

SAPIM makes good spokes and nipples and is equally good at marketing BS.

 

[Ajax Bay]

To offer a different angle to the advice of the experts - @Yellow Saddle and @Spoked Wheels above: when I've seen a nice custom built wheel on a bike during an audax, I have been asking the rider about it. The vast majority have said: SAPIM Race and brass nipples. (SP dynamo hubs and H Plus Son Archetype rims also abound.) This may, of course, be self-reinforcing (ie from a small community) but that community is doing millions of kilometres a year, and really values reliability as the key requirement in all their equipment.

 

[apb]

I used aluminum nipples once. when i was truing the rear wheel drive side i twisted the nipples. the spokes were far from tensioned. i will never ever use them again. The weight saving, even on a 36 hole wheel, is so small it's not worth the hassle.

It sounds like you are building a touring wheel and not a race wheel, so weight is not even a consideration. Brass nipples will easily outlast the rim they are built on.

As for spokes i have only ever used DT swiss spokes and only because i find them easier to attain (rose bikes). On a pair of audax wheels that i have just built i used competition the sapim equivalent are Race. i would not hesitate to give sapim a try. i would always use a double butted spokes.

if i was to build a 26" touring wheel i would give dt swiss alpine spoke a try or the equivalent sapim spoke (sapin force), specially if i'm going somewhere rough. Spokes usually snap at the shoe, so i assume alpine spokes on a wheel built by someone who knows something about wheel building will be pretty ruggered.

 

[Sore Thumb]

To offer a different angle to the advice of the experts - @Yellow Saddle and @Spoked Wheels above: when I've seen a nice custom built wheel on a bike during an audax, I have been asking the rider about it. The vast majority have said: SAPIM Race and brass nipples. (SP dynamo hubs and H Plus Son Archetype rims also abound.) This may, of course, be self-reinforcing (ie from a small community) but that community is doing millions of kilometres a year, and really values reliability as the key requirement in all their equipment.

I've had 2 SP dynamos and one seized during winter and the 2nd lasted 200 miles and now has side play.

This is why I am getting a wheel rebuild with a SON Dynamo.

I've chose DT Swiss comp spokes and brass nipples.

 

[Venod]

I would use Sapim Race with Brass Nipples, I buy my spokes from Spa Cycles Harrogate, they build a lot of wheels with ACI spokes which I have also used.

The Sapim Race are 2.0mm 1.8mm 2.0mm the ACI Alpina F1 are 2.0mm 1.7mm 2.0mm I have had no breakages with either, they both come with brass nipples.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

if i was to build a 26" touring wheel i would give dt swiss alpine spoke a try or the equivalent sapim spoke (sapin force), specially if i'm going somewhere rough. Spokes usually snap at the shoe, so i assume alpine spokes on a wheel built by someone who knows something about wheel building will be pretty ruggered.

I don't understand. How does riding "somewhere rough" require different spokes?
I also don't understand why you think Alpine spokes, which are single-butted and thinner at the weakest part of the spoke, would be more durable than a standard double-butted spoke.

 

[andrew_s]

I don't understand. How does riding "somewhere rough" require different spokes?
I also don't understand why you think Alpine spokes, which are single-butted and thinner at the weakest part of the spoke, would be more durable than a standard double-butted spoke.

I expect apb was meaning the the Alpine III spokes, which are 2.3/1.8/2.0 butted, and hence similar to the Sapim Force (the match for Alpine being the Sapim Strong).

 

[I like Skol]

I have used the Alpine iii spokes on my disc braked commuter and done around 12k on them so far without so much as a tweak being needed. I'm happy but suspect the competition spokes would have performed just as well? Brass nipples obviously!