Sorry

[HeartAttack]

I know this area is all about HGV's etc and cyclists, and from what I have ficked through many seem to be talking and urging for more education to drivers, yes this in my mind will help matters....


BUT


If a cyclist is stupid enough to ride up the inside of a lorry then its their own bloody fault, even if there is a dedicated cycle area there is no way I would ride up the inside of a lorry PERIOD!!

So maybe the emphasis should be on educating cyclists first and foremost, they are the ones riding up the inside.

 

[purplepolly]

If a cyclist is stupid enough to ride up the inside of a lorry then its their own bloody fault, even if there is a dedicated cycle area there is no way I would ride up the inside of a lorry PERIOD!!

So maybe the emphasis should be on educating cyclists first and foremost, they are the ones riding up the inside.

Yes, when the cyclist has cycled up the side of a lorry that is indeed stupid.

But often it's the other way round, HGV pulls up alongside cyclist and then turns left. Or cyclist is moving in a foward direction and HGV cuts through them to turn left. In both of these cases it's the driver that needs educating and possibly a brain transplant or an eye test.

 

[HeartAttack]

Yes, when the cyclist has cycled up the side of a lorry that is indeed stupid.

But often it's the other way round, HGV pulls up alongside cyclist and then turns left. Or cyclist is moving in a foward direction and HGV cuts through them to turn left. In both of these cases it's the driver that needs educating and possibly a brain transplant or an eye test.

I agree if the lorry turns across the rider then yes they need educating, but if a lorry pulls along side a cyclist at lights, they both move forward and then the lorry turns left, well I sort of agree the driver is at fault, but so is the cyclist as although the lights may have turned green, its their call if its safe to move off or wait a few seconds.

 

[ttcycle]

It's a two way process HA - it's good to focus on both as a few sources correctly point out that even when it is not the fault of the cyclist the way news is reported automatically blames the cyclist in language used and that's why it needs to be more than just cyclists need to not undertake as sometimes this allows for undue apportioning of blame even when a cyclist hasn't undertaken. It's about educating both HGV drivers and cyclists. It's covered a bit in the thread -time for action - though it's a hefty number of pages.

 

[ianrauk]

What is even more annoying is when you are waiting behind a large vehicle at a junction for the very reasons you outline, you then get a complete and utter twat of cyclist decide that it's no danger and squeeze past you and up the side of the vehicle..it's madness,

 

[Origamist]

I know this area is all about HGV's etc and cyclists, and from what I have ficked through many seem to be talking and urging for more education to drivers, yes this in my mind will help matters....


BUT


If a cyclist is stupid enough to ride up the inside of a lorry then its their own bloody fault, even if there is a dedicated cycle area there is no way I would ride up the inside of a lorry PERIOD!!

So maybe the emphasis should be on educating cyclists first and foremost, they are the ones riding up the inside.

There is a common misconception that the overwhelming majority of HGV/cyclist collisions are the consequence of a cyclist undertaking on the left. This is not the case, despite the posts/myths/memes propagated on cycling fora.

At the most recent HGV working group TFL were proposing the fitting of side guards to HGVs - the LCC then pointed out that this was only addressing part of the problem as a number of cyclists were hit by the front of the HGV.

The critical combination of circumstances is different in each collision and you do the victim and their family a disservice by generalising that cyclists "are the ones riding up the inside".

 

[Origamist]

I agree if the lorry turns across the rider then yes they need educating, but if a lorry pulls along side a cyclist at lights, they both move forward and then the lorry turns left, well I sort of agree the driver is at fault, but so is the cyclist as although the lights may have turned green, its their call if its safe to move off or wait a few seconds.

You might be in the HGV's swept path if you "wait a few seconds". If you can't get eye contact with the driver, get the **** out of the way before the lights turn green - do not put your safety in the hands of someone who has put you in a vulnerable position.

 

[purplepolly]

but if a lorry pulls along side a cyclist at lights, they both move forward and then the lorry turns left, well I sort of agree the driver is at fault, but so is the cyclist as although the lights may have turned green, its their call if its safe to move off or wait a few seconds.

And what happens to a cyclist who waits? Gets caught by the back of the vehicle as it cuts the corner.

Sorry, the fault is the drivers. In what possible circumstances could it be correct to pull up on the right of someone if you want to turn left? It's a completely and utterly stupid postion to take up and anyone who hasn't got the sense to wait behind shouldn't be driving a go-cart let alone a HGV.

 

[dellzeqq]

Origamist has it right. Undertaking is daft, but that isn't how cyclists have been killed.

 

[CopperBrompton]

What's the source of your info, Dellzegg? I haven't seen any breakdown of the number caused by cyclists riding up the inside of HGVs vs those caused by HGVs overtaking cyclists then turning left. It would be very useful to have this info.

 

[dellzeqq]

my recollection of the accounts of each of the accidents, and a lecture from Tom Bogdanovich of the LCC. Prompted, in part by the one thing that most have in common - construction traffic.

But - to repeat - undertaking is daft. Don't do it.

 

[Origamist]

What's the source of your info, Dellzegg? I haven't seen any breakdown of the number caused by cyclists riding up the inside of HGVs vs those caused by HGVs overtaking cyclists then turning left. It would be very useful to have this info.

Causative analyses of the sort that you are looking for are difficult to come by...

In London, The London Road Safety Unit holds detailed collision investigation reports that cover cyclist fatalites. I have not contacted them for a long time (post-FOI) so it is worth submitting a request. The Met's Traffic Operational Command Unit and the CofL Police equivalent also have collision investigation reports, the LCC have detailed briefing documents on the issue, and of course, there are coroners' inquest reports.

The LRSU do release general casualty and collision reports which give some info relating to the cause of the collision involving a pedal cyclist (the last report was released earlier this year), but not a huge amount can be gleaned from these documents as the two most commonly listed contributory factors in cycle fatalities were "vehicle turns left across path of cyclist" and "vehicle runs into the rear" of cyclist.

 

[CopperBrompton]

Causative analyses of the sort that you are looking for are difficult to come by...

Indeed, which was why I was surprised to see a confident assertion ruling out a cause ...

the two most commonly listed contributory factors in cycle fatalities were "vehicle turns left across path of cyclist" and "vehicle runs into the rear" of cyclist.

The latter surprises me greatly, as this is the one type of accident novice cyclists tend to worry about (especially when you try to explain when and why to ride in primary) and yet I'd always understood it to be vanishingly rare.

 

[dellzeqq]

I think there are shades. The young woman who was killed on the Pentonville Road was hit by the front of a lorry turning left from the right hand lane (that sounds bonkers, but the road design had something to do with it). The Tavistock Square death was caused again by a lorry turning left from the right hand lane. I think the one at Streatham Hill (a Tesco lorry) came about because the driver didn't see her on the left hand side - but she hadn't passed him by on the left. The woman killed on the A102 slip was crushed by a truck (still not located) overtaking her.

In general, though, Ben, I have to agree that the worst place to be on the road is on the left hand side of a truck, whether it be following you, overtaking you, or (heaven forfend) you are undertaking the truck.

Has any of us ever said anything to a rider undertaking? I have. It's a bit hit and miss.

 

[Origamist]

The latter surprises me greatly, as this is the one type of accident novice cyclists tend to worry about (especially when you try to explain when and why to ride in primary) and yet I'd always understood it to be vanishingly rare.

Context: I'm quoting the 2007 cyclist fatality figures for London. According to LRSU there were 15 cyclist fatalities - 3 of those deaths included cyclists who were hit from behind (20%).