Shimano Steps problems

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DaddyPaddey

Über Member
Location
Fareham
I have done about 9000 miles on my ICE Adventure recumbent assisted by Shimano Steps E6000. This has been very reliable up until the last month when the display has suddenly gone blank [turning the motor off], and the system then rebooted itself, though when it comes back on the power assist is set to 'off'. I did a hilly 40 miles last Wednesday without the slightest glitch. Fast forward to Saturday and during the last 10 miles of a 25 mile ride it turned itself off no less than 27 times [yes I was counting] including one time when I was stationary. Local Shimano support is puzzled. Has anyone encountered anything similar, if so what was the outcome?
 

CXRAndy

Guru
Location
Lincs
You have a intermittent fault albeit regular

The first thing is to find a way to check that you're not losing battery power when the display dies.

A DVM volt meter connected at a point where power is sent to the motor and display.

It could take a while to see symptoms.

Probably best to have a camera like GoPro to record both meter and bike display simultaneously to see if battery voltage drops or disappears.


Obvious checks first, good connections and no corrosion at terminals, then dry joints (soldered) on PCBs
 
Maybe if you could try a different battery pack it would show your battery pack is end of life. 9000 miles shared by lets say 40 miles (estimated range) shows about 225 full charge cycles and if you only get 20 miles that would be 450 charge cycles. Either way I guess this is in the number of charge cycles where the cells will start to fail and the discharge rate may collapse at times. Some mid-drive motors are extremely high current motors delivering 80Nm or more of torque when climbing hills which really punishes the cells especially if the battery pack is fairly low capacity like 400Wh.

Some mid-drive motors are using 15-25A at max so over 700W sometimes over 800W. I would suspect the battery pack as a possible cause amongst many other possible causes however this is easily tested with a newer battery pack if you can find some way of borrowing one. A healthy 36V battery pack should produce 42V when fully charged so I guess that would be a easy check. If it can't produce that voltage purely when tested with a multimeter and no real load that is likely an indicator of a battery pack near the end of its life. However it could still be end of life even if 42V without load but it would be an indicator of end of life if sub 42V. The 36V rating is sort of its inbetween voltage its average voltage, 36V battery packs start at 42V fully charged and maybe finish at 30V before the battery management prevents any more discharging. Sometimes battery packs have intermittant cells that makes it difficult to diagnose problems.
 
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DaddyPaddey

DaddyPaddey

Über Member
Location
Fareham
Maybe if you could try a different battery pack it would show your battery pack is end of life. 9000 miles shared by lets say 40 miles (estimated range) shows about 225 full charge cycles and if you only get 20 miles that would be 450 charge cycles. Either way I guess this is in the number of charge cycles where the cells will start to fail and the discharge rate may collapse at times. Some mid-drive motors are extremely high current motors delivering 80Nm or more of torque when climbing hills which really punishes the cells especially if the battery pack is fairly low capacity like 400Wh.

Some mid-drive motors are using 15-25A at max so over 700W sometimes over 800W. I would suspect the battery pack as a possible cause amongst many other possible causes however this is easily tested with a newer battery pack if you can find some way of borrowing one. A healthy 36V battery pack should produce 42V when fully charged so I guess that would be a easy check. If it can't produce that voltage purely when tested with a multimeter and no real load that is likely an indicator of a battery pack near the end of its life. However it could still be end of life even if 42V without load but it would be an indicator of end of life if sub 42V. The 36V rating is sort of its inbetween voltage its average voltage, 36V battery packs start at 42V fully charged and maybe finish at 30V before the battery management prevents any more discharging. Sometimes battery packs have intermittant cells that makes it difficult to diagnose problems.

Interesting. I have two batteries, having bought a second one and the lbs tested them and showed they have had 71 and 107 charging cycles respectively. Something I noticed on the report was '2nd Generation battery : No', whether thi is relevant I have no idea.
 
Interesting. I have two batteries, having bought a second one and the lbs tested them and showed they have had 71 and 107 charging cycles respectively. Something I noticed on the report was '2nd Generation battery : No', whether thi is relevant I have no idea.

As you have two battery packs I assume that eliminates the possibility of it being the battery pack as I'm guessing the issue happens with both battery packs? 2nd generation battery sounds like they had to make improvements in the 1st generation battery like the Gtech battery packs where the first version was failing with limited use and they improved the cells fitted in the 2nd generation I think. However I may be remembering wrongly but I remember someone buying the 2nd generation Gtech battery because they were expecting their 1st generation battery pack to fail at some point and it was actually the 2nd generation that failed but I think that was a rare unexpected situation that statistically was less likely to happen but would still happen in low numbers.
 
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DaddyPaddey

DaddyPaddey

Über Member
Location
Fareham
Yes it happen with both packs, and the surface of the road seems to make no difference,i.e. it will happen on a smooth road or bumpy
 
Yes it happen with both packs, and the surface of the road seems to make no difference,i.e. it will happen on a smooth road or bumpy

Sounds like a controller board failure, intermittent fault. Mid-drive motors get very hot as everything is in one unit and because its down by the bottom bracket they have to be sealed against water ingress so are hard to cool. Often they are the worst motors for over-heating and being thermally throttled. The hot/cold cycles of such motors can put the control electronics under a lot of stress and there is of course the possibility of water ingress too. So if its not going to be the battery packs it feels like the main control board in the motor is likely a bit flaky perhaps one component is failing or there is a dry joint somewhere. Sometimes torque sensors fail and give garbage data to the control board but I can't see why the display would cut out with that. 9000 miles is brilliant service for a mid-drive motor I feel considering their complexity so I don't think you have done badly its just about trying to push it a bit further in lifespan. I would definitely be cautious about spending huge amounts on repair for such an ebike and getting sucked into paying constant bills as the ebike ages.

I guess my approach might be to look for a working ebike with the same motor system and end up swopping parts until I knew what was faulty and could then solve the issues by finding that exact part secondhand. I remember talking to Halfords staff about ebike faults and that is exactly what they end up doing a lot of the time when their ebikes have annoying faults that are hard to trace, typically the Suntour HESC motor system ebikes that they sell so many of. If you already have two good Shimano battery packs then a ebike with an end of life battery pack would not be such a big deal for you. This assumes Shimano repairs are similar to Bosch or Brose where often repairs get close to the £1000 and often the motor unit has to be sent off sometimes to Germany for repair and service. So you have to pay for disassembly at the bike shop, getting sent to Germany, repair, getting sent back to the UK, refitted by the bike shop etc and you end up with a huge bill. The way I understand it is most bike shops can only do basic servicing of proprietary mid-drive motors, belts, nylon cogs, bearings etc. However I haven't heard much about Shimano issues as they are likely typically more reliable and may not have as many units out there anyway. So don't know what Shimano ebike dealers can and can't do and how much they charge for repairs. Maybe their repairs are more reasonable.
 
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DaddyPaddey

DaddyPaddey

Über Member
Location
Fareham
I am now beginning to doubt myself with regard to the batteries as I quite often have to swap them during a ride. Today was a fairly lumpy 25 miles with one section of road of just over a mile in length being an absolutly appaling road surfase. Shook my fillings out yet the motor behaved impecabally. I think ver the next two weeks, on my longer rides, I am going to swap the batteries, and log the results, to see if there is a difference.
 
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