Road Widths

[Marchrider]

Any sensible rider on a narrow road with a tractor coming towards them has three options, #3 turns into #2 mostly
1) Get completely off the road and stop
2) Turn around and find somewhere to do #1
3) Stop in the middle of the road (and hope they do too) and then do #1 or #2
I guess you're the courageous sort who knows their rights.
If you are shagged after 68 miles, I recommend a cafe stop with substantial nutrition at the 2/3rds point. And (not or) arrange to meet and ride the last 2 hours with a friend.
As for your thread title, I expect to be able to till I cannot safely ride a bike.

thought I would answer this here rather than go off topic on another thread

I'm a great advocate of being either, completely in the way or completely out of the way style of riding, give them room to squeeze by and they will Problems arise for me on roads that are neither wide or narrow. I call them Off Widths (old climbing term) You can't really stay in the middle of these to slow traffic down as it would be obvious you were being an arse - but keep to the side and drivers are going to get to close, or go too fast or both!

As to the Tractor thing from the other day, and this isn't the first time this has happened with farm tractors, am I being taught a lesson about being in his countryside ? they're an arrogant lot

This is what I am referring to as an 'OffWidth' road seems wide enough when he is keeping to the side, but then he moves a foot or two over as we pass ?

 

[Electric_Andy]

they're an arrogant lot

I don't really like the generalisation but yes some drivers of all vehicles can be inconsiderate and dangerous. I think most motor vehicle-ists have never ridden a bike on the roads so are just oblivious to how close you have to get for it to be dangerous. The road in and out of my village is lined with parked cars and it's normal to cruise past at 20-30mph leaving only 6 inches between wing mirrors. This is the yard stick that many blinkered motorists go by. I'm not excusing close passes, but sometimes ignorance is easier to swallow than arrogance. The tractor moved over early so assume they had some sort of consideration, just not enough in reality

 

[mjr]

it's normal to cruise past at 20-30mph leaving only 6 inches between wing mirrors. This is the yard stick that many blinkered motorists go by. I'm not excusing close passes, but sometimes ignorance is easier to swallow than arrogance.

There's not really any excuse for ignorance now that some passing distances are explicitly stated in the highway code. They ought to ask drivers how much room to leave and send the failures for a theory test before they get their licence back.

On road widths, I think it's well known that certain widths cause problems for walkers and cyclists. Some government documents give a range of widths to avoid. I think it's in the code of practice on safety at street works. However there doesn't seem to be any effort to try and phase out those road widths on country roads when they're resurfaced or otherwise repaired. I guess there's just too many of them and too many other things to do first.

 

[Ajax Bay]

government documents give a range of widths to avoid. I think it's in the code of practice on safety at street works. . . . . doesn't seem to be any effort to try and phase out those road widths on country roads when they're resurfaced or otherwise repaired. I guess there's just too many of them and too many other things to do first.

I went looking! Maybe this: snips:
Traffic control
Adequate unobstructed width is required to allow two-way traffic to flow safely past the work site. Where
such widths cannot be provided, appropriate traffic control must be considered.
Unobstructed widths
The following table shows Standard and Restricted carriageway widths for different types of traffic. The
standard widths are designed to maintain access for buses and heavy goods vehicles, and must be
provided wherever practicable [ . . . otherwise] restricted lane widths are permissible.

The desirable width for shuttle working with normal traffic (i.e. including buses and HGVs) lies
between 3.25 and 3.5 m. This range avoids certain widths that create opportunities for unsafe
overtaking of cyclists, and is based on Department for Transport guidance. (Research found that for
widths between 2.75 and 3.25 m, most cars could overtake cyclists, but with reduced safety. Similarly, it
found that for widths between 3.5 and 3.75 m it was possible for HGVs to overtake cyclists, but again with
reduced safety.)
Consideration must be given to this before deciding to use widths other than 3.25–3.50 m for normal
traffic in shuttle working.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a7d8038e5274a676d532707/safety-at-streetworks.pdf
Think the idea an effort should be made to phase out those road widths on country roads somehow fails at the first hurdle: practical hedge/bank widths, though maybe not such an issue in the eastern flatlands. As you imply, the resource required would be extraordinary and a business case would fail on first draft.
The info source I find most useful when planning routes is the simple 1:50,000 OS map. Roads shown as narrow yellow ("generally less than 4m wide") are likely to require vehicles (including cycles) to stop before achieving a pass and I try to avoid. Riding downhill (or fast flat) with bends: care! Wide yellow ("generally more than 4m wide") on the map means that one can ride confident that you'll always be able to ride past safely.

 

[steveindenmark]

I do not care what the rules and regulations are. Common sense must always prevail. I have a tractor and trailer coming at me down a narrow lane. I am not going to expect him to reverse. As long as they stop. We will sort it out by me getting out of their way. One way or another. Self preservation is the key.

 

[Ajax Bay]

Steve, @Marchrider 's issue was that the road they were on was wide enough to safely pass but the tractor+trailer moved closer to the centre thus passing them (cyclist already committed) by a margin that felt too close.
Based on the images, I would've been confident of a safe pass, but people's thresholds differ.
We've all been passed close from behind numerous times: me not since Monday. But normally approaching vehicle 'pass management' is a straightforward albeit dynamic risk assessment. See the quote in the OP.
I completely agree with your take, @steveindenmark but the road in OP is clearly (my metric) not a 'narrow road'. Narrow (in Devon, say) roads are too narrow for two cars to pass. When a tractor comes your way . . . see quote in OP. Ideally spot a passing place and tuck in. Tractor drivers have a job to do and cyclists, most of the time, are at leisure.

 

[mjr]

Think the idea an effort should be made to phase out those road widths on country roads somehow fails at the first hurdle: practical hedge/bank widths, though maybe not such an issue in the eastern flatlands. As you imply, the resource required would be extraordinary and a business case would fail on first draft.

I don't see why. Are you assuming all roads would be widened? They could be narrowed with passing places,which has actually been done a little way upriver from me, on a section of road where fools used to come off the hill too fast onto the fen, try to squeeze past oncoming vehicles, cock it up and end in the water (and I mean end 🙁). If they can do it when motorists are endangered, why not for walkers and riders? Each life saved is worth something around £15m, plus there's the cost saving of not resurfacing the full width after the logs or earth is installed to narrow it. The numbers might stack up, if it's done when it would need resurfacing or rebuilding anyway.

 

[Drago]

I don't really like the generalisation...

I never stopped an agricultural vehicle where the driver wasn't committing at least one offence. Not once. And I stopped a lot of them.

 

[I like Skol]

Saw this thread earlier today and resisted the urge to post. After work now and a little more time so can type freely.

TBH, I think the OP is over reacting a bit and the camera type/angle is portraying an unfair image.

In the first picture, it looks like there is lots of room, more than in the second picture, but definitely plenty of room to pass comfortably (depending on your definition of comfortable, I'd be happy at that). Unfortunately we don't have any view of what the tractor is approaching and what the cycle rider has just passed, so maybe the tractor moving over a little is not to be unexpected or unreasonable?

The second picture initially looks OMG! scary, with big chunky tyres basically touching the brake levers, but look back slightly to the trailer and this is purely a trick of the camera lens. The trailer wheels are set at least as wide as the tractor, that is clear even at this perspective, but the gap between trailer wheels and verge while not ideal, is probably acceptable to most road users when passing an oncoming vehicle in that environment. Obviously you wouldn't want to be overtaken (at speed or otherwise) that close, but if you want to ride quiet country lanes with little traffic then that is the compromise. Try riding in a city centre rush hour and you will quickly agree that the country lanes are preferable.

Basically I'm saying, nothing to see here, chill and move on?

 

[Marchrider]

Saw this thread earlier today and resisted the urge to post. After work now and a little more time so can type freely.

TBH, I think the OP is over reacting a bit and the camera type/angle is portraying an unfair image.

In the first picture, it looks like there is lots of room, more than in the second picture, but definitely plenty of room to pass comfortably (depending on your definition of comfortable, I'd be happy at that). Unfortunately we don't have any view of what the tractor is approaching and what the cycle rider has just passed, so maybe the tractor moving over a little is not to be unexpected or unreasonable?

The second picture initially looks OMG! scary, with big chunky tyres basically touching the brake levers, but look back slightly to the trailer and this is purely a trick of the camera lens. The trailer wheels are set at least as wide as the tractor, that is clear even at this perspective, but the gap between trailer wheels and verge while not ideal, is probably acceptable to most road users when passing an oncoming vehicle in that environment. Obviously you wouldn't want to be overtaken (at speed or otherwise) that close, but if you want to ride quiet country lanes with little traffic then that is the compromise. Try riding in a city centre rush hour and you will quickly agree that the country lanes are preferable.

Basically I'm saying, nothing to see here, chill and move on?

I never said it was an OMG Sacary! moment, he moved towards me just as we were about to pass, something that has happened to me quite a few times with tractors - there was a perfectly adequate comfortable gap that for what ever reason was halved as we passed. I don't know why he did it, crap driving is possible as he did appear to be playing with a phone, or just a bit of intimidation, they're a very arrogant self entitled lot.

There was nothing for him to move out for... a slight puddle.

The big problem with these giant tractors now, and I use the word giant as they are quite often the size of articulated lorries, and often driven faster on minor roads, there is no special licence needed, a car licence will do. If that had been an HGV you could go to the traffic Commissioners who can take action, just a car licience then we are down to the utter uselessness of the police and courts.

 

[steveindenmark]

Steve, @Marchrider 's issue was that the road they were on was wide enough to safely pass but the tractor+trailer moved closer to the centre thus passing them (cyclist already committed) by a margin that felt too close.
Based on the images, I would've been confident of a safe pass, but people's thresholds differ.
We've all been passed close from behind numerous times: me not since Monday. But normally approaching vehicle 'pass management' is a straightforward albeit dynamic risk assessment. See the quote in the OP.
I completely agree with your take, @steveindenmark but the road in OP is clearly (my metric) not a 'narrow road'. Narrow (in Devon, say) roads are too narrow for two cars to pass. When a tractor comes your way . . . see quote in OP. Ideally spot a passing place and tuck in. Tractor drivers have a job to do and cyclists, most of the time, are at leisure.

I was in Cornwall on a lane where the tractor filled every inch of the tarmac. Then there were very steep embankments and then big hedges. It was a steep scramble to get round it. Luckily without bikes. But we had a laugh with the diver and got through. I would imagine its an occupational hazard down there.

 

[Ajax Bay]

@Marchrider you have got yourself into the mindset that all tractor drivers are likely to do this. In which case slow, get to the verge edge, and stop.
In the 'plenty of room' circumstance, I am focused on the gap, not looking to see if the tractor driver is "appearing to be playing with a phone" And your idea that the driver is deliberately engaging in "a bit of intimidation" suggests you are developing a persecution complex. And judgemental: "they're a very arrogant self entitled lot".
Tractors are deliberately made that width: they are a machine designed for a job, but narrow enough to get down a country road.

 

[Marchrider]

@Marchrider you have got yourself into the mindset that all tractor drivers are likely to do this. In which case slow, get to the verge edge, and stop.
In the 'plenty of room' circumstance, I am focused on the gap, not looking to see if the tractor driver is "appearing to be playing with a phone" And your idea that the driver is deliberately engaging in "a bit of intimidation" suggests you are developing a persecution complex. And judgemental: "they're a very arrogant self entitled lot".
Tractors are deliberately made that width: they are a machine designed for a job, but narrow enough to get down a country road.

good grief

I never said 'ALL', a significant minority of people driving tractors if you are wanting me to quantify

On the Off-Width type road I am referring to above I will virtually always get off when a tractor is coming from behind, experience has told me that is the wise thing to do, but that is not always straight forward either. If it is not always practical to get off the road for hedges/ditches etc and if you need to stand in the gutter then they are likely to steam past at great speed and ridiculously close (with god knows what sticking out from the side of the trailer or flailing straps that could cause serious injury). And then if you have heard them late they will steam past as you are trying to get off, and in icy conditions this is probably the most dangerous situation of all.

Vehicles coming towards me I am less bothered about, I can see what is happening, even if I was forced off the road I could still choose to miss the tractor. In the tale from above the closeness was not an issue, it was the fact he seemed to choose to narrow that gap that I found intimidating. Oh, and I think I have the ability to see what the driver is doing and steer my bike at the same time, a fraction of a second glance is all that is needed.

Tractors have got bigger and bigger over the last few decades, they are colossal now, the size of any HGVs, and yet the licence requirements to drive them has never changed, a 17 yo who has just passed the car test can drive one (and at harvest time this happens) Folk are driving these giant articulated vehicles on narrow country roads whose driving licence would not entitle them to pull a box trailer behind their own car.
(not quite sure but up to certain size (2.45m wide) of tractor and trailer, 16 yo with a provisional licence can drive)

Tractor drivers have a job to do and cyclists, most of the time, are at leisure.

by that logic, many people on the road have jobs to do and may be you would have cyclists invest in zwift, stay in their garages or bedrooms and stop getting in the way of hard working motorists?

 

[Ajax Bay]

may be you would have cyclists invest in zwift, stay in their garages or bedrooms and stop getting in the way of hard working motorists?

Nope. But at leisure a brief delay matters not.
Keep that camera rolling: you're getting great images for your e-scrapbook.
"Folk are driving these giant articulated vehicles on narrow country roads whose driving licence would not entitle them to pull a box trailer behind their own car." Take extra care at harvest time then, everyone.