Primary position gets you more room

[Red Light]

A US study has confirmed Iain Walker's results that riding further from the kerb gets you more room from passing motorists.....up to a point. It seems 3-4ft out is the optimum for the largest passing distance. They also give women more room but lycra clad men a lot less room. Out with the duffel coat and blonde wig tomorrow methinks

 

[Herzog]

A US study has confirmed Iain Walker's results that riding further from the kerb gets you more room from passing motorists.....up to a point. It seems 3-4ft out is the optimum for the largest passing distance. They also give women more room but lycra clad men a lot less room. Out with the duffel coat and blonde wig tomorrow methinks

What about if you give a little fake, overexagerated wobble as they are coming up behind you? I reckon that's good for another 20cm.

 

[DTD]

I was told looking behind you fairly often (which I just do anyway) can be quite good as drivers think you may be about to move out they tend to give you a bit more room.

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

The thing that sticks out for me in that report is the size of the minimum passing distances recorded. Good grief! Those are the ones that are important. The average passing distances are not really that relevant in my view.

 

[Bicycle]

I've been thinking a little about this issue of 'more room'.

I tend to ride (when on road) either on rural A-roads or right in the middle of London.

In London there is no such thing as 'more room' in the rush hour. I don't ask for it and I don't give it when cycling.

There is judgement and then you may or may not have a little faith in other road users.

Out in the sticks (single-carriageway A roads, artics passing at speed) a little room is nice but it is rarely given. I am used to having the wheelnuts of a passing artic just outside my offside elbow. It feels normal. It does not feel right to think what will happen if the driver sneezes.

How much room is 'more room' and how much does it benefit a cyclist?

I've been knocked off quite a few times, but never by someone going in my direction who didn't give me enough room.

I have to say I'm pretty satisfied with the amount of room given by most motorists. It is the same as the room given when I learned to cycle.

 

[MrHappyCyclist]

A US study has confirmed Iain Walker's results that riding further from the kerb gets you more room from passing motorists.....up to a point. It seems 3-4ft out is the optimum for the largest passing distance. They also give women more room but lycra clad men a lot less room. Out with the duffel coat and blonde wig tomorrow methinks

The title of the the topic is a bit misleading. 3-4ft out is secondary position, not primary. According to the tables and graphs, moving out further to primary position doesn't get you any more passing space (in Florida).

Of course, the reason for using primary position is not usually to gain passing space, it is so that (hopefully) the pass doesn't happen at all at that particular place. (Plus a load of other reasons: visibility, reaction space in case of SMIDSY, etc.)

 

[VamP]

I am used to having the wheelnuts of a passing artic just outside my offside elbow. It feels normal. It does not feel right to think what will happen if the driver sneezes.

I think you're fairly unusual in feeling like this. Maybe some fatalistic personal philosophy zen thing? Like if that wheelnut's got your number on it...


Personally, I find a tesco artic doing 30, when I'm doing 25, and closing the gap on me after only getting half way past, a truly terrifying proposition. Seems to happen fairly often too. And no, I don't play chicken with it

 

[Origamist]

The title of the the topic is a bit misleading. 3-4ft out is secondary position, not primary. According to the tables and graphs, moving out further to primary position doesn't get you any more passing space (in Florida).

Of course, the reason for using primary position is not usually to gain passing space, it is so that (hopefully) the pass doesn't happen at all at that particular place. (Plus a load of other reasons: visibility, reaction space in case of SMIDSY, etc.)

Yes, it is corroborating much of the anecdata about the benefit of riding in the "seconday position" (approx 3-4 feet from the kerb in this study, not from the moving traffic lane) in relatively wide (13ft - 16ft) lanes, on multi- lane roads i.e. sharing the lane with motorised traffic. However, the gutter pan is not considered part of the measured lane width, but crucially, the cyclist's distance is measured from the kerb face to centre of his/her front wheel (this includes the gutter pan). The pics make this clearer.

The difference in passing distances between men and women is an interesting phenomenon.

 

[moon_monkey]

Personally, I find a tesco artic doing 30, when I'm doing 25, and closing the gap on me after only getting half way past, a truly terrifying proposition. Seems to happen fairly often too. And no, I don't play chicken with it

Interesting.

I work at Brooklands so, presumably, encounter the same tesco lorries that you do.

In over 2 years of commuting I've only ever had one issue with one of them, and that was a pullout at the RAB between Sopwith Drive and Wellington Way. Cheeky bugger gave me the finger as well.

Wonder if there's something fundamentally different in the way we cycle which causes it or, more likely, they're behaving themselves where I see them as it's within a stone's throw of their base and easily traceable.

 

[snailracer]

.... I am used to having the wheelnuts of a passing artic just outside my offside elbow. It feels normal. It does not feel right to think what will happen if the driver sneezes.
...

OK here is a suggestion: ride further away from the kerb in primary position to discourage close passes in the first place. If lorries still try to brush the hairs on your elbow, you then have >2m of space to your left to drift into. If you were in primary to begin with, the lorry would have had to slow down before trying to push past you, which makes it easier to time your evasive drift towards the kerb. As traffic passes, keep trying to edge out into primary when there is a gap, to slow successive vehicles trying to overtake.

 

[Bicycle]

OK here is a suggestion: ride further away from the kerb in primary position to discourage close passes in the first place. If lorries still try to brush the hairs on your elbow, you then have >2m of space to your left to drift into. If you were in primary to begin with, the lorry would have had to slow down before trying to push past you, which makes it easier to time your evasive drift towards the kerb. As traffic passes, keep trying to edge out into primary when there is a gap, to slow successive vehicles trying to overtake.

I appreciate the concern for my wellbeing, but there is no need. I'm fine with things as they are.

THe roads on which artics (and similar) pass me are often rural single-carriageways and the trucks/cars are doing between 50 and 80 mph. Occasionally my presence means that I (reluctantly) have no choice but to cause a responsible driver to slow down to my speed (usually 18-25 mph). Often the driver will smell a gap and have a pop. If he's not too close I'm fine with that. Sometimes mirrors are a little close. It's really OK. I don't ride over drain covers to give drivers more room, but not for a moment would I want to slow down a motor vehicle who has the chance to make a close-ish pass.

My road position is as it has been for about forty years. As a cyclist I try to modify the speed of other road users as little as possible. It's not a matter of timid riding; in London I'm all sharp elbows and out-of-the-saddle bursts. But that isn't appropriate on A-Roads among HGVs travelling at speed. Nor on dual-carriageways without a hard shoulder.

This is the same road positioning I taught my children.

I rarely have artics trying to 'brush the hairs on my elbow', but I take your point. I know you weren't being literal.

I frequently have then passing me very, very close. It simply doesn't bother me.

One day a driver might sneeze and one day he might have a blow-out or similar.

It's not a Zen thing or a Buddhist thing at all (as suggested by another contributor).

I do get the 'Primary' thing, but it isn't me and I very rarely occupy a space you would describe as Primary Position.

When I drive I try to give as much room as I can to cyclists.

But when drivers cut me a little close I'm fine with it. There are things to weep about. That (for me) is not one of them.

 

[VamP]

Interesting.

I work at Brooklands so, presumably, encounter the same tesco lorries that you do.

In over 2 years of commuting I've only ever had one issue with one of them, and that was a pullout at the RAB between Sopwith Drive and Wellington Way. Cheeky bugger gave me the finger as well.

Wonder if there's something fundamentally different in the way we cycle which causes it or, more likely, they're behaving themselves where I see them as it's within a stone's throw of their base and easily traceable.

Yeah, they're the same ones. It's always on Redhill Road, after they peel off the A3. I think they feel they should overtake as it's a long straight stretch, but as it's quite undulating, often there's oncoming traffic that they just didn't see when they started the overtake. Plus they always seem to assume that I am travelling far slower then I really am. There's a pavement there, so my Plan B is to bunny hop onto that, if they really blow their overtake.

I hate that stretch, unfortunately it's really my only option for getting on to the amazing Surrey Hills lanes.

 

[moon_monkey]

Yeah, they're the same ones. It's always on Redhill Road, after they peel off the A3. I think they feel they should overtake as it's a long straight stretch, but as it's quite undulating, often there's oncoming traffic that they just didn't see when they started the overtake. Plus they always seem to assume that I am travelling far slower then I really am. There's a pavement there, so my Plan B is to bunny hop onto that, if they really blow their overtake.

I hate that stretch, unfortunately it's really my only option for getting on to the amazing Surrey Hills lanes.

I know the road. Too narrow for the speed limit as well.
Wouldn't have thought trucks would bother with it, though, as I didn't think you could get to the A3 off it.
Unless you mean Byfleet road, which can be seriously unpleasant on 2 wheels.

Apologies for the tangent to the thread btw.

 

[VamP]

I know the road. Too narrow for the speed limit as well.
Wouldn't have thought trucks would bother with it, though, as I didn't think you could get to the A3 off it.
Unless you mean Byfleet road, which can be seriously unpleasant on 2 wheels.

Apologies for the tangent to the thread btw.

*perpetuating the tangent*

Yes, it's Byfleet Road I mean. Dur.