hub gear bikes for kids?

[enas]

Hi,

So I only recently bought our daughter's latest bike (as mentioned in a previous thread), but I'm already thinking about her next bike. Obviously it will be the right time to introduce her to gears. And thinking of this, it seems so obvious to me that three speed hub gears are the ideal introduction to gears for kids: no worrying about stopping in high gear, ability to change when stopped and while pedalling, easy to learn gears intuitively with just three gears (easy/normal/hard), no flimsy derailleur to worry about whenever kids lay their bike down not so gently. And generally, they're cheap and robust.

Is there any manufacturer offering such bikes? My extensive research has been inconclusive. The closest thing I've found is the Pinnacle Aspen 5 speed. That would be exactly what I have in mind, except it's 5 speed and 24 inch -- I am imagining a three speed 20 inch. German manufacturer Puky does something like that, except they're very heavy (although well-specced), and frankly hideous (with their awfully unimaginative girl and boy versions). Some googling up suggests me they were once fairly common (see this for example), but apparently have gone out of fashion or what.

So, apparently, no UK manufacturer does them, but what about lesser known (in these shores) German or Dutch manufacturers? I would appreciate any hint.

 

[marknotgeorge]

There's a few on bikediscount.de - mainly Puky, although there's a Cube (which for some reason they won't courier here or Ireland - a shame, because I think it's great!). Alternatively, Taylor Wheels in Germany will make you a 20" rear wheel with a Nexus 3 speed hub for about €78, if you want to adapt something you buy locally.

 

[enas]

There's a few on bikediscount.de - mainly Puky, although there's a Cube (which for some reason they won't courier here or Ireland - a shame, because I think it's great!). Alternatively, Taylor Wheels in Germany will make you a 20" rear wheel with a Nexus 3 speed hub for about €78, if you want to adapt something you buy locally.

Cheers for the Cube, I hadn't found that one. Unfortunately, I still find it in the same vein as the Puky ones, but less extreme all right (with the obligatory white and pink girly one and "boys" one being full of colours all over the place, heck they managed to fit four colours on the saddle alone). Plus I understand the dynamo light and reflectors (to comply with German regulations as I understand it) makes it a very good choice for everyday utility cycling, but in our case that would be rather over-engineered. Still one to keep in mind though.

I had actually found Taylor Wheels, and seriously consider going down that route, as it can make for an entertaining and easy project to do with my daughter.

And finally, a question I should have asked in the OP. Am I wrong to insist on hub gears? What are the negatives?

 

[mjr]

The main negatives on hub gears are the initial purchase cost, the problems of slipping if the cable tension drifts and it's harder to remove most Shimano wheels to fix punctures. The easier maintenance outweighs that IMO

 

[mjr]

[QUOTE 3867577, member: 259"]Derailleur gears are dead easy for kids to get to grips with - why bother with hub gears?[/QUOTE]
The points in the opening post are all valid IMO. Have kids' bikes gone the same way as adults' with ever-more fragile and finicky derailleurs?

 

[enas]

[QUOTE 3867577, member: 259"]Derailleur gears are dead easy for kids to get to grips with[/QUOTE]

I'm sure they are, I just think that hub gears are easier, for the reasons I've stated in my original post; mostly changing while pedalling or when stopped. I've always seen kids (and adult learners for that matter) systematically stop in too high a gear, struggling to start pedalling again and downshifting while applying full pressure to the pedals.

Also, I'm of the opinion that too many gears are more of a distraction than anything really useful for kids. I like the simplicity of three gears, and I don't think that a three gear hub would cost that much either. They're old and tested technology, and the price difference between the hub gear and derailleur versions of the Cube or Puky models mentioned before suggest that the cost is indeed small...

Of course, this is all pure speculation, and when it comes to my own daughter, it might be the case that I'm making too much of an issue out of this.

 

[outlash]

Thing is with hub gears, is that they add a fair bit of weight. Given kids' bikes are often heavy enough already, would adding an extra kilo help matters? Hub geared bikes from my youth (Raleigh Grifter etc etc) tended to weigh around the same as an aircraft carrier.

 

[enas]

Thing is with hub gears, is that they add a fair bit of weight.

But do they? Take for example the 24inch models from Puky. The difference between the 3 speed model and the derailleur model is 400 g... in favour of the 3 speed. Granted, the derailleur comes with a triple front chainring (a heresy!). Only the 7 speed model is a whole kg heavier that the derailleur, 1.4kg more than the 3 speed model. If you take the Pinnacle bikes, the 5 speed model and the derailleur model (which has a single chainring) weigh... the exact same (both 22.4lbs).

This reinforces my feeling that 3 speed hub gears aren't any heavier... Maybe I just identified a gap in the market and I should launch a quality 3 speed kids bike?

 

[mjr]

Thing is with hub gears, is that they add a fair bit of weight. Given kids' bikes are often heavy enough already, would adding an extra kilo help matters? Hub geared bikes from my youth (Raleigh Grifter etc etc) tended to weigh around the same as an aircraft carrier.

I had one of them and I'm fairly sure the heavy weight of the Grifter was in most other parts, not the gear hub. I've seen a few comparisons and the ones which include the whole drivetrain were within a few hundred grammes either way. Only the ones which consider only the wheel tend to claim derailleurs are clear winners, ignoring how their efficiency falls off with chainline and needing cleaning and so on.

 

[outlash]

I'll wager whoever wrote Pinnacle's spec sheets are not quite telling the truth, or it's a massive coincidence those bikes are the same weight.

 

[User169]

So, apparently, no UK manufacturer does them, but what about lesser known (in these shores) German or Dutch manufacturers? I would appreciate any hint.

The Dutch brands, Gazelle and Batavus both make kids bikes with three speed hubs gears. My daughter has one of these (Batavus Gabana)..

I prefer hub gears to derailleurs because our bikes are always outside (note chainguard also).

 

[mjr]

This reinforces my feeling that 3 speed hub gears aren't any heavier... Maybe I just identified a gap in the market and I should launch a quality 3 speed kids bike?

It would be risky. UK cyclists (and especially bike shops) are still disproportionately racing-inspired and bigoted against hub gears. Of course everyone needs 10% gear steps so they can match the speed of a peloton easily while maintaining optimum cadence at the expense of fiddlier cleaning and adjustment for riding to the shops or park

 

[enas]

It would be risky. UK cyclists (and especially bike shops) are still disproportionately racing-inspired and bigoted against hub gears. Of course everyone needs 10% gear steps so they can match the speed of a peloton easily while maintaining optimum cadence at the expense of fiddlier cleaning and adjustment for riding to the shops or park

Yes, I know what you're saying unfortunately

On the other hand, we're talking of kids bikes, where considerations tend to differ. As far as I remember, the idea of lightweight quality bikes for kids was unthinkable too, before Islabikes came in, and they've created that market, as far as I can remember. So maybe the hardest step has already been done.

Anyway, I wasn't really going to do that (unfortunately, I'm really not an entrepreneurial type of person). The second best option is to try and convince Islabikes that they should do this. Who knows, if I start now, they might have such bikes in two years time (wishful thinking here too) when I'll need it...

 

[Milkfloat]

I see young kids bikes as disposable because they grow out of them so fast, so for me it is all about cost. This can be approached in a a couple of ways, buy a bike that won't depreciate much and sell it on after a year or so, or by a BSO and give it away/junk it. I tend to go the BSO route, but staying away from suspension and buying some slick tyres straight away. That way I don't have to bother with a resell, plus I don't have to worry about it being stolen at school. I honestly believe there is no such things as a great young kids bike - even the Isla bike my 8 year old would need is 9.5KG, her BSO is only 1KG heavier and one eighth of the price.

A hub gear would be great, but on the cost side it does not make it practical. When my daughter can fit an XS frame 26" or 700 wheel size then the options will open up considerably.

 

[enas]

I see young kids bikes as disposable because they grow out of them so fast, so for me it is all about cost. This can be approached in a a couple of ways, buy a bike that won't depreciate much and sell it on after a year or so, or by a BSO and give it away/junk it.

This totally makes sense. I personally chose the low depreciation route, since I factor in the pleasure factor too (fully aware that it might only please myself and that my daughter might not care the slightest), and it comes even slightly cheaper than a reasonably usable BSO (but with the extra hassle of reselling).

The fact is that there is a market for Islabikes at the prices they're asking (and some other brands now too), and my point is that 3 speed hubs should fit within those prices and specs (same price, same weight). I remember that Islabikes were seen as bold for offering MTB style kids bikes without useless front suspension, maybe ditching the derailleur is another move in this direction?