How do I 'progress' this insurance matter?

[Fastpedaller]

I hope I've put this in the correct part of the forums. I've just received my renewal to cover my company liability insurance for Plumbing. Last year (when they introduced the exclusion) I renewed it because it provided me with the legally required public and employee liability cover at the best cost I could find.
These are the endorsements in the Policy:-
Gas work exclusion - not covered (not an issue as I'm not trained on gas)
More worryingly..
1) Internal Work Height Restriction - We will not cover any internal work that is carried out more than I metre (3 ft 3 inches) from the floor
Heat work (other than soldering) Exclusion - We will not cover any claim arising out of the use of many equipment that produces heat or flames other than soldering irons.
!a) No underground interior work.
2)External Work Above Ground Level Exclusion - We will not cover any claim resulting from external work involving the use of access equipment

I expect someone to ask 'why did you renew with those exclusions'? and my simple answer is that I'd been trading for over 20 years and with the same insurance provider for about half that time and never had a claim, the excess applied in the (unlikely) event of a claim is over £500, and mirrored by the other insurers who wanted twice the premium (and maybe the same exclusion, I didn't delve further). On the basis that I had the legally required cover (and a limited company) I decided an immediate saving for a lower-cost policy was the way to go. In the event of a low-cost claim I'd have to cover the excess anyway, and if I experienced a high-cost claim I'd challenge the unfair contract or go into liquidation (as the big companies do) although I wouldn't choose that route unless pushed.
n.b. This Policy is promoted as professional plumber Insurance, yet with those exclusions (unless I'm reading it entirely wrong)
Exclusion1) means no work on showers as they are too high (or do the insurers mean the plumber is 1 metre from the floor? If so is that to his/her feet or does it really mean no shower work?
Exclusion 2) External work above ground level - So I can't fit an outside (garden)tap to the outside on someone's kitchen wall? Access equipment.... drilling to make hole through wall. The wording seem deliberately vague. I suspect (because I'm having to ask the question) that the answers aren't straight-forward, however some here may respond to say I'm entirely mistaken, but I'm wondering how to proceed:-
If the policy has unfair terms which are designed to reject claims from all plumbers I'm thinking of bringing it to light to the senior management of the company with a view to
a) Trying to reclaim some of my policy fee (although I expect nothing as I agreed to it albeit with unfair terms)
b) 'Shame' them into doing a better job - Maybe bring it to the attention of Martin Lewis?
I add that I've recently retired, so won't be renewing, but if they are being unfair I'd like to hold them to account (for the benefit of other plumbers). Please note.... don't fall into the "plumbers earn lots of money" mindset. We don't earn lots - that's reserved for 'heating engineers' and I've retired because the physical strain and my age were fast catching up with me (now 66)

 

[Drago]

A letter of complaint to the insurer, then a complaint to the financial ombudsman when they flannel you?

 

[alicat]

Even though you've retired, a claim could still be made against you for work done in the past 6 years so imho it would be a good idea to keep your insurance running for 6 years after you retire. This type of insurance operates on a claims made basis.

 

[Drago]

Even though you've retired, a claim could still be made against you for work done in the past 6 years so imho it would be a good idea to keep your insurance running for 6 years after you retire. This type of insurance operates on a claims made basis.

In thet scenario would the claim not be made against the policy that was in operation at the time the installation was made?

That time has moved on and the policy "ended" doesn't negate the insurers liability for claims arising later for insured activities during that period.

 

[alicat]

^^^ no. The claim is made against the current policy so if the OP has no insurance policy in force he will be settling the claim out of his own pocket.

 

[Fastpedaller]

^^^ no. The claim is made against the current policy so if the OP has no insurance policy in force he will be settling the claim out of his own pocket.

If nobody has put in a claim (and the last work I did was 6th August) I'll take my chance on that rather than paying over £200p.a. for insurance with a £500 excess. Who would be able to establish if nobody has altered what I did anyway?

 

[Drago]

^^^ no. The claim is made against the current policy so if the OP has no insurance policy in force he will be settling the claim out of his own pocket.

Some dispute with this at the dinner table tonight, information received from someone with more expertise than me (Mrs D, MBA). It can go either way, dependent on the circumstances and the policy wording.

The only case of which I have any personal knowledge the insurer covering the period where the act occurred was liable, not the subsequent insurer some years later when the claim was made as the later insurer is not responsible for acts or incidents prior to them taking the baujness.

 

[alicat]

That's your call, @Fastpedaller. Just so long as you are aware of the position.

Hi @Drago, the policy wording will refer to 'claims made' I think you'll find. I don't have an MBA; however, I using to be a solicitor defending professional indemnity claims....

 

[Jotheboat]

When refurbing my house, I joined PlumbersTalk.net
I asked some fairly basic questions, but there may well be someone who could help you.

 

[kynikos]

Last year you accepted the terms and you've not had a claim so no beef with the insurer and they're unlikely in the extreme to negotiate any form of refund nor would changing the terms be of any use.
This year you're not renewing so they're not going to engage with you (as a non-customer).
Your post indicates you traded via a limited company which, as you're now retired, is (presumption here) wound up or has no assets so any uninsured claim would fail. So no need to have no form of retrospective insurance.

TLDR: You're retired. Cast off any worries about the past, sit back and enjoy life.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

The concept of not insuring if any equipment produces heat is rather overkill

basically any electrical equipment produces heat in some manner
even a vacuum cleaner gets warm during use - which is "producing heat"

certainly a battery charger for power tools produces heat


I know this is not what it means - but this is an insurance company and we all know that sometimes they are "Oh it's OK - don;t worry" when you take the polciy our
and then "But the wording clearly says" when you make a claim

I know that intention is to exclude tools that are designed to produce large amount of heat - especially flames

but the phrasing seem to have been designed to cover far more than is necessary
in other words - if an electric drill suddenly had an internal short and someone got burn - they could easily claim that as electric drills get warn/hot when in use then this is not covered

 

[Fastpedaller]

Last year you accepted the terms and you've not had a claim so no beef with the insurer and they're unlikely in the extreme to negotiate any form of refund nor would changing the terms be of any use.
This year you're not renewing so they're not going to engage with you (as a non-customer).
Your post indicates you traded via a limited company which, as you're now retired, is (presumption here) wound up or has no assets so any uninsured claim would fail. So no need to have no form of retrospective insurance.

TLDR: You're retired. Cast off any worries about the past, sit back and enjoy life.

Absolutely, and thanks for the insight. I rang the insurance co a couple of weeks ago, before the policy ran out and asked them to stop the auto-renewal and also clarify a couple of points. I asked about the 'working at height' clause which stated no work over I metre, thinking they might state that the 'operator' mustn't be over 1m off the ground (I guess their feet?) but they didn't, they just categorically said it means nothing above 1m. The Exclusion 2) External work above ground level - So I can't fit an outside (garden)tap to the outside on someone's kitchen wall? using access equipment. was answered similarly with "that's what it says", but when I gave the example of garden tap on outside of kitchen wall the answer was "I'm not sure". So it appears the telephone op hasn't a clear understanding either. I may use their complaints procedure (ar contact Martin Lewis to highlight it and (maybe prevent others falling into a trap, or at least prompting clear explanations in the policy. Time has been very lacking until today as 89YO MIL had a fall and we've had to arrange 24hr care for her, so that's our priority.

 

[Alex321]

I hope I've put this in the correct part of the forums. I've just received my renewal to cover my company liability insurance for Plumbing. Last year (when they introduced the exclusion) I renewed it because it provided me with the legally required public and employee liability cover at the best cost I could find.
These are the endorsements in the Policy:-
Gas work exclusion - not covered (not an issue as I'm not trained on gas)
More worryingly..
1) Internal Work Height Restriction - We will not cover any internal work that is carried out more than I metre (3 ft 3 inches) from the floor
Heat work (other than soldering) Exclusion - We will not cover any claim arising out of the use of many equipment that produces heat or flames other than soldering irons.
!a) No underground interior work.
2)External Work Above Ground Level Exclusion - We will not cover any claim resulting from external work involving the use of access equipment

I expect someone to ask 'why did you renew with those exclusions'? and my simple answer is that I'd been trading for over 20 years and with the same insurance provider for about half that time and never had a claim, the excess applied in the (unlikely) event of a claim is over £500, and mirrored by the other insurers who wanted twice the premium (and maybe the same exclusion, I didn't delve further). On the basis that I had the legally required cover (and a limited company) I decided an immediate saving for a lower-cost policy was the way to go. In the event of a low-cost claim I'd have to cover the excess anyway, and if I experienced a high-cost claim I'd challenge the unfair contract or go into liquidation (as the big companies do) although I wouldn't choose that route unless pushed.
n.b. This Policy is promoted as professional plumber Insurance, yet with those exclusions (unless I'm reading it entirely wrong)
Exclusion1) means no work on showers as they are too high (or do the insurers mean the plumber is 1 metre from the floor? If so is that to his/her feet or does it really mean no shower work?
Exclusion 2) External work above ground level - So I can't fit an outside (garden)tap to the outside on someone's kitchen wall? Access equipment.... drilling to make hole through wall. The wording seem deliberately vague. I suspect (because I'm having to ask the question) that the answers aren't straight-forward, however some here may respond to say I'm entirely mistaken, but I'm wondering how to proceed:-
If the policy has unfair terms which are designed to reject claims from all plumbers I'm thinking of bringing it to light to the senior management of the company with a view to
a) Trying to reclaim some of my policy fee (although I expect nothing as I agreed to it albeit with unfair terms)
b) 'Shame' them into doing a better job - Maybe bring it to the attention of Martin Lewis?
I add that I've recently retired, so won't be renewing, but if they are being unfair I'd like to hold them to account (for the benefit of other plumbers). Please note.... don't fall into the "plumbers earn lots of money" mindset. We don't earn lots - that's reserved for 'heating engineers' and I've retired because the physical strain and my age were fast catching up with me (now 66)

I'm reading some of those a bit differently to you.

For 1, I would say that means the plumber must not be standing more than 1 m from the ground (so nothing more than a small step ladder). If it means the work must not be more than 1m above the ground, it wouldn't just exlcude showers, but also most sinks and basins.

For 2, I think you missed the "involving access equipment" - so things like cherry pickers or scaffold towers (possibly even ladders). Anything you can reach from the ground is definitely OK.

The other exclusions would actually bother me more. No underground interior work means you can't do anything in a cellar, if they have pipewirk or radiators there. And no heat work means you can't use a blowtorch for capillary joints. Though I know most plmbing nowadays seems to be done with push-fit plastic joints.

 

[Fastpedaller]

For 1 - I agree this is the most logical explanation. The 'advisor' I spoke to was clearly of the opinion that any work on an item over 1m from the ground wasn't covered. I doubt they would class a drill used to make an access hole through a wall as 'access equipment', but again is it clear and precise enough? - ref also the comments of ebikeerwidnes above.