Help needed to date a 50-80 year old Raleigh bike.

[Polo]

I have had a Raleigh gentleman’s dark green bike Since 1972 that was very old when I required it. It could be as early as 1930’s or more likely 1960’s .The frame number is ‘233555 P’ and situated on the frame just below where the seat tube goes in.
it has a key operated 3 position front wheel lock at top of forks, cable brakes, clamps to take a battery pack, but sadly no battery tube and stainless steel rims. Headlamp is green with chrome bezel and it has a Sturmey Archer 3speed change lever on handle bar. It also has a Brooks leather saddle. Please can anyone tell me the likely age and value. Surface paint and gold lining is not brilliant and chrome is poor, but rides well with smooth gear change. Stored in dry loft for last 47 years. Sadly, no key for lock. I am new to this site and hope will have successfully attached a photo. thank you for any help you might give. Polo.

 

[DCLane]

@Polo - this might help: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/retroraleighs/dating.html and http://www.kurtkaminer.com/TH_raleigh_serials.html

Looking at it 23355 P looks to be 1940's

 

[raleighnut]

There should be a date on the SA hub.

 

[midlife]

Raleigh made these almost unchanged for years, looks too young to be 40's, maybe 68 to 72 when Raleigh numbers were a bit flakey. There should be a stamp on the SA rear hub to help. Not sure on value 50-60 quid?

 

[midlife]

Beaten to it by raleighnut lol

 

[Polo]

There should be a date on the SA hub.

 

[ChrisEyles]

I'd also say 1950s on - earlier frames typically had bolt on detachable seat stays.

The fact that it has caliper rather than rod brakes makes me suspect it's more likely to be 1960s/70s, but not so confident on that.

Not likely to be worth much as there are a lot knocking about, but they're perfectly nice to ride.

Be interested to hear the date if you find one on the hub.

 

[Polo]

Thank you for advice, I will check out tomorrow. Polo.

 

[Polo]

I'd also say 1950s on - earlier frames typically had bolt on detachable seat stays.

The fact that it has caliper rather than rod brakes makes me suspect it's more likely to be 1960s/70s, but not so confident on that.

Not likely to be worth much as there are a lot knocking about, but they're perfectly nice to ride.

Be interested to hear the date if you find one on the hub.

I'd also say 1950s on - earlier frames typically had bolt on detachable seat stays.

The fact that it has caliper rather than rod brakes makes me suspect it's more likely to be 1960s/70s, but not so confident on that.

Not likely to be worth much as there are a lot knocking about, but they're perfectly nice to ride.

Be interested to hear the date if you find one on the hub.

I'd also say 1950s on - earlier frames typically had bolt on detachable seat stays.

The fact that it has caliper rather than rod brakes makes me suspect it's more likely to be 1960s/70s, but not so confident on that.

Not likely to be worth much as there are a lot knocking about, but they're perfectly nice to ride.

Be interested to hear the date if you find one on the hub.

Thank you all for such informative replies. I will let you know after looking at rear hub for date. Can’t believe how quick your responses were.

 

[SkipdiverJohn]

I'm pretty certain that what you have is a Raleigh Superbe Sports Tourist, given the type of frame and mix of mechanical components fitted. This was, at the time, Raleigh's top of the range 26" roadster, and they cost £26 10s in 1958, which is about £600 in todays money.
However, as mentioned, these bikes were in production for decades with virtually no changes to spec, so you really need to date them from the Sturmey Archer hub gear, and see if it's in the right ball park for the frame number (as the wheel may not be original to the bike).
I have an almost identical bike, except mine is the rod braked version, and has a 1974 frame number with a 1973 rear hub date - which is quite normal.
As to value, these bikes really are a bit of an oddball. Immaculate ones are sought after by hardcore vintage Raleigh collectors, and I would expect an exceptional one with all accessories, good paint and chrome, to easily fetch well over £100 secondhand. However, the less than immaculate ones (like mine) that would require a full repaint or rechroming are not that valuable due to the expense of restoring them to showroom condition. They are really only worth what the utility market will pay, which is not that much as these bikes are perceived as very heavy and old-fashioned despite their excellent quality engineering. Value in the condition of yours well under £100, and the £50-60 figure given is realistic as the buyers pool for these is small. Mine was only £15, which is exceptionally cheap but does have a couple of problems that need sorting out.

 

[biggs682]

Find a good old fashioned locksmith and they might be able to sort a key out , if not try an older bikeshop .

My lbs sorted one out for an elderly Rudge

 

[SkipdiverJohn]

If you look closely at the lock barrel, the key number may even be stamped on it, in which case it can be replaced without needing to extract the barrel from the fork crown. They are much the same as vintage car ignition or filing cabinet keys.

 

[SkipdiverJohn]

'd also say 1950s on - earlier frames typically had bolt on detachable seat stays.

The fact that it has caliper rather than rod brakes makes me suspect it's more likely to be 1960s/70s, but not so confident on that.

i didn't really pick up on this point made by @ChrisEyles, but the construction of roadsters seems to depend more on the age of the design of the bike, than it's actual manufacturing year.
When the design of the Safety Bicycle had pretty much settled down around the turn of the 20th century, the dominant design was the Roadster which tended to feature the bolted-in seat stays. However a bit further into the 20th century, the Sports or Light Roadster evolved, which were fully brazed frames. What had previously been just a Roadster, then became retrospectively designated a Heavy Roadster. This was probably also tied in with the development of thinner wall, hi-tensile steel tubing, which reduced frame and bike weight.

What is interesting is that neither design school ever managed to completely oust the other, and both distinct types, plus hybridised ones like the Dawn Tourist with "heavy" rod brakes and chaincases, but lighter "sports" type frames, managed to co-exist over a very long period and cause confusion decades later.
It's very tempting to jump to the conclusion that anything with bolted-in stays and/or rod brakes must be ancient, but Raleigh were still making such mobile museum pieces (no doubt only in small numbers though) right up until at least the early 1980's. The shiny black enamel and gold-lined 28" beasts with battery storage lights and locking forks were still sharing showroom space with the most basic machines like the Wayfarer, until comparatively recent times. IIRC, their price tags were roughly twice that of the humble cable braked models (as @midlife might be able to confirm) but some customers still wanted them regardless.

 

[midlife]

Yep, I've PDI'd a Rod braked Roadster at the same time as a 12 speed Carlton Pro Am lol. That would be 79-80.

The old bolt on seat stays had gone by then iirc. I even fitted some sort of rear wheel protector that stopped things going into the back wheel (skirt guard) . Some mudguards were perforated so that you could thread string between the guard and the dropout.

 

[SkipdiverJohn]

Can you remember how the prices of the various models compared?
My memory might be playing tricks, but IIRC around 1983 a Wayfarer had a £109 price tag whereas one of the museum pieces was about £190 - which was a fair chunk of cash then. I remember buying a 3-speed Puch for £72 on special offer; the normal price was £80, still a good bit less than a Raleigh. The chrome wasn't up to the same standard though, as Puch brightwork rusted a lot worse than Raleigh!