GPS Elevation

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Hacienda71

Mancunian in self imposed exile in leafy Cheshire
I ride about 8 miles into work from Wilmslow to Macclesfield. I log the ride using a Garmin Edge 200 and then upload the ride to Strava and Endomondo. I also occasionally download a chunk of rides to Garmin Connect. I looked at the elevation on all three sites today and they were as follows:

Endomondo 479 ft
Strava 364ft
Garmin 379 ft

Then I looked at a historic ride over the same route recorded on my HTC Desire and logged on Endomondo about a year ago, which said 302 ft of ascent.That shows a total variation of over 30% between the different forms of recording the ride.

Which one is the most accurate? :wacko:
 

ianrauk

Tattooed Beat Messiah
Location
Rides Ti2
When you downloaded your ride to Garmin Connect did you click the elevation correction button?
 
Location
Midlands
What is not the same is not the same - mapping programs will calculate elevation gained/lost differently - ditto various devices - add on to that up and down on amateur GPS is rubbish in estimating height then 50m difference even over a short distance is not unusual in my experience (Vista - Sunnto core - VDO 1.0 - Cateye ATC- polar )
 

fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
It does vary, I get it on a flat ride to work. Can be worse when there is changing atmospheric pressure during a day, as I know the higher end versions use air pressure as well to judge heights.
 
OP
OP
Hacienda71

Hacienda71

Mancunian in self imposed exile in leafy Cheshire
@400bhp has a 705 and it always says it gives him an extra 800 ft of climbing on his way back to Altrincham from Ashley. :laugh:
 

potsy

Rambler
Location
My Armchair
@400bhp has a 705 and it always says it gives him an extra 800 ft of climbing on his way back to Altrincham from Ashley. :laugh:
It does, when we have done the same ride his always shows an extra 1000ft or so of climbing, unless he goes backdown all the hills and does them again while he's waiting :whistle:
 

MattHB

Proud Daddy
The 705 uses very different smoothing algorithms to the newer models. It counts many more of the tiny altitude spikes and adds them up, when it probably shouldn't do, so they always read higher.

The 500, (I'm not sure about the 200) has the ability to use altitude points that you give it based on coordinates. Whenever you start off a ride it searches for any within 30m of you and uses that as a base point. So that might help with finish/end values as well.

Strava used to have a correction facility but it seems to have disappeared. TrainingPeaks has one too on the subscription version.
 

andrew_s

Legendary Member
Location
Gloucester
Amount of climbing figures are a can of worms.

For one thing, what constitutes a change of elevation? Is there some threshold below which it doesn't count, or do you add on 6 inches for every speed hump you roll over or a half inch every time you pass out of a worn-off patch of chippings? The smaller the threshold, the larger the amount of elevation change for any given route.
This consideration will affect any method of getting a figure for a day's total ascent.

On top of that, there are potential problems with all methods of getting an ascent reading.
a) Pure GPS.
A GPS takes a measurement every second, and any one reading is only accurate to within 10m or so (about 3x the error in horizontal position). On average the errors cancel out, so if you take enough readings you'll get an accurate height, but you are moving and not necessarily at a constant height so you can't just do that. The figures you get off a GPS will be smoothed to avoid random errors, but over what period? If it's too short, random errors add into the total ascent giving too high a reading, but if it's too long you miss recording low and high points and get too low a reading.
In the end, you don't know the smoothing algorithm, so you don't have a good idea of what the figures mean.

b) Barometric (including some GPS units)
Barometric altimeters give much less short term variation so are pretty accurate over short periods, but are prone to long term drift and so need calibrating before every ride, and during the ride if possible. In good weather (static high pressure), they could vary by only a couple of metres during a full day's ride, but at other times you could find that the height of a fixed point (home) has varied by 100m or more during the ride. If it does vary, you've that much error included in the ascent figure. As well as that, most barometric altimeters are a bit slow to react and may miss the tops of hills or the bottoms of valleys if you go straight back down/up again.

c) From a map.
If you count contours & spot heights on an OS map, you will get a definitive and repeatable answer, but any small climbs of less than 5m (Explorer) or 10m (Landranger) will be disregarded (see my initial point). It's also a manual process that takes a fair while.
If you use an electronic map (Memory Map or whatever), the height figures come from a set of point heights 25m or so apart on a rectangular grid (which have themselves been obtained by interpolating between contours, for UK OS sourced data at least), and the height of any point on the track is obtained by interpolating between points on the grid.
There are at least 4 different sets of available height data which will all give different results for the same track (OS Panorama (open data), OS Profile (paid for), original space shuttle radar, at least one other satellite radar set).
If the track goes somewhere where there isn't a smooth slope, you'll get errors and false climbing, plus there will be errors in track location either via GPS errors or because the road on the map isn't marked in its true location (as they often aren't).

As an example of the differences, back in pre-GPS times, the Elenith 300km audax used to give a climbing figure of 11530ft (3515m), from contour counting, but the AUK website now shows 4727m (from unspecified GPS). The route is pretty much the same as it used to be.

FWIW, I regard contour counts as the "true figure", and use the results from a barometric GPS when I can't be bothered to count (i.e. usually).
 

MrJamie

Oaf on a Bike
It's something to do with the geometry of triangulating from mostly above, being a bit like how your eyes can tell how far left/right/up/down an object is very easily but judging distance without reference points is much harder. As MattHB says, the data the device/app gets will have lots of tiny errors, constantly giving slight +/- climb data even on a perfectly flat road, then it depends on the algorithm it uses as to how much of this it smooths out and ignores. Some of them use actual reference data and others use approx. calculations based on the earth as a round squished sphere.

I think I recall someone saying GPS is great for telling you where your plane is, but you wouldnt want to rely on it to land :smile:
 

400bhp

Guru
It does, when we have done the same ride his always shows an extra 1000ft or so of climbing, unless he goes backdown all the hills and does them again while he's waiting :whistle:

Hills - hills - what hills do we do when you are on a ride.:whistle:
 
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