Difference between drops and flat bars?

[lulubel]

Apart from the obvious!

Say, you took the drop bars off a road bike and replaced them with flats, using an identical stem (and obviously replaced brake levers/shifters where necessary to make everything work), but left everything else the same. How would it feel different?

I now have 2 bikes - the MTB I've been riding for the last 4 months and my new road/cross bike that I rode twice over the weekend. The MTB is obviously a lot slower on the road, but it's so easy to ride in the sense that it feels solid and reliable, it goes exactly where I point it, I can just chuck it around, I feel relaxed and I have fun when I'm riding it, and I feel able to just sit back, look at the view and chill. The road bike is fast (so fast it scared me for a moment when I first got on it, although I soon got over that) and the things I love about it are the same things I loved when I first got a road bike - speed, speed and, er, speed - it goes up hills so easily, it's effortless to ride by comparison, but it's twitchy, and I don't think I'll ever feel as relaxed and chilled out riding it as I do riding the MTB.

How much of it is down to the bars? (Or the more stretched position? Or the skinny tyres?)

I can't believe I'm posting this when I've always said I absolutely, definitely - no room for discussion - prefer drops, but I'm wondering if I should put flat bars on it. Maybe .... when I've ridden it a bit more and had more chance to judge.

(Yes, I know the issues with converting between drops and flats, but I built this bike using bars and sti levers off my old bike, which are quite battered looking anyway, and I plan to replace when I have some money.)

 

[Berties]

my commute is a road bike with flat handle bars goes like stink as you would expect,good averages and top end speeds,my local shop is getting more requests for flat bar upgrades on new road bikes,I like the position of ride,as long as the geometry is ok!

 

[AndyRM]

I'd say it's more down to tyres and experience than anything else.

There's much less contact with the road which is why you'll feel less stable. You could try fitting wider tyres. provided there is clearance. When I first put road tyres on my hybrid, they were 28c. I'm now down to 20c on my road bike, which are a lot narrower and twitchier, but the payoff is speed and, now that I'm used to it, agility.

The more you ride on a road bike the more natural it will feel!

 

[BrumJim]

Isn't frame geometry a primary factor in responsiveness?

 

[lulubel]

I'd say it's more down to tyres and experience than anything else.

The more you ride on a road bike the more natural it will feel!

I've ridden a road bike for 4 years (until I was hit by a car and it was wrecked a few months ago), that's why I feel so weird asking this question. I'm just wondering if I'll ever feel as comfortable and relaxed on the road bike as I do on the MTB. It was really unexpected because I've always loved my drops, but now I'm wondering if I was having as much fun as I thought I was.

 

[lulubel]

Isn't frame geometry a primary factor in responsiveness?

I don't know. That's why I started this thread. And what do you mean by "responsiveness".

 

[HLaB]

My old sirrus was flat bar but I converted it to drops as flat I'd say it was almost as fast as the drops unless there was a headwind, the drops were just that bit more aerodynamic. You also noticed this on longer rides iirc I was comfortably averaging 15-15.5mph when it was a flat bar but 15.5-16mph immediately after conversion (everything else was the same at that point). Oh and over and above the speed thing, you also have more hand positions. All of that is the obvious though All I do think that like for like the flat bar was better for climbing though.

I never really found it any twitchier when I converted but maybe because I'd already bought the Bianchi dropped bar road bike, it felt very twitchy at first so much so I thought I'd made a serious mistake. I know its against the grain of opinion here but I'm glad I never test rode it before I bought it; based on that first ride I would have never bought it but I love the bike and its handling now. Give your drops time and you'll probably get used to it too and you can enjoy the benefits.

 

[zizou]

It is probably down to not being used to the new bike yet.

If you put flat bars on then your position on the bike is going to be very similar to what it is now when holding the top of the drop bars and hoods

 

[lulubel]

The thing is, I spent 4 years riding a road bike and, although I loved it and thought I'd never want to ride anything else, I never had as much fun as I do on the MTB. I never felt as safe on it, and therefore not as brave.

One example - I've never been able to take my right hand off the bars. I lose my balance and veer wildly all over the road. One day I found myself absent-mindedly scratching an insect bite on my left arm (with my right hand) as I rode along on the MTB.

I love the speed of the road bike, and I love how easy it is up hills. I just wonder if I can have the speed and the feeling of safety and confidence in the same bike.

I'm kind of musing really.

If you put flat bars on then your position on the bike is going to be very similar to what it is now when holding the top of the drop bars and hoods

I noticed I've been putting my hands on the tops a lot when I'm climbing, so I can sit back more, but I find the closeness to the stem a bit unnerving. I'd rather have my hands a lot further apart.

 

[MontyVeda]

I've ridden a road bike for 4 years (until I was hit by a car and it was wrecked a few months ago), that's why I feel so weird asking this question. I'm just wondering if I'll ever feel as comfortable and relaxed on the road bike as I do on the MTB. It was really unexpected because I've always loved my drops, but now I'm wondering if I was having as much fun as I thought I was.

I had dropped bars from about 83-93... couldn't imagine anything else. But since I got an MTB the old drops immediately felt too narrow, too low and too long... there's no going back for me.

 

[HLaB]

I think I felt more confident at times on my Ridgeback Velocity but I think it had more to do with its weight, wider tyres and being slower overall; I didn't notice any difference between the narrower tyred/ lighter sirrus when it was flat bars as oppose to being dropped.

 

[RecordAceFromNew]

it's twitchy, and I don't think I'll ever feel as relaxed and chilled out riding it as I do riding the MTB.

How much of it is down to the bars? (Or the more stretched position? Or the skinny tyres?)

Unfortunately not much. The biggest deciding factor of twitchiness is trail (see this). It is practically certain that your road bike's head tube angle would be a couple of degrees steeper than your mtb's, and the rake/offset of your road bike forks is also likely 6 or 7mm greater than that of your mtb forks. These, despite the road bike wheel probably being slightly larger in diameter, will likely cause the road bike's trail to be around 20% less than that of the mtb, making it more twitchy/responsive. Finally, it is also likely that your mtb forks/front wheel etc. would weigh two or perhaps even three times more than that of your road bike, which might also contribute slightly to a steadier feel.

There is no question that a light, decent road bike on 700x20c at high pressure will go like it is on rails with minimal effort on decent tarmac. But to my mind there is also no question that the most comfortable, unhurried, go anywhere fun ride is a quality full susser on a diet. If I can only have two bikes they will be it.

 

[MacB]

As RecordAce says there are quite a few factors that go into that 'feel', ignoring other factors then the mechanical trail number gives you high = likes to go straight and low = turns very easily. But even that doesn't describe it well, factors that effect it:-

increase trail = larger tyres, reducing head tube angle, reducing fork offset

decrease trail = the exact opposite of the above

Then you have the position of your hands in relation to the steering axis, MTB wide and further back, road bike narrow and forward. So the former requires larger movements to effect a change in direction and the latter smaller movements. You can prove this to yourself by holding your MTB bars near the stem and seeing how much less you need to move your hands to steer....though it's not a position I'd ride in.

Now on your OP question regarding a straight swap and feel difference, well handily I've done exactly what you describe on two bikes. One was a flat bar bike converted to drops and then back again. The other was a drop bar bike converted to flats and then back to drops. I should note that none of these were actually flat bars, all were big sweep risers or alternative style bars. I can confidently say that, once the positioning was sorted out, the bikes felt pretty much the same either way. Or at least the difference in feel was small enough that it became normalised within one ride. By the way sorting the position did include changing stems and I flipped the riser bars for a lower position on one bike. I would add that the wider bars did reduce the skittish type feel but I then moved to wider flared drop bars and got pretty much the same result.

The last point I'd make is that it's easy to confuse speed with skittishness, as in it's skittish so it must be fast. Larger tyres are nowhere near as slow as some would have you believe. They will increase your trail number and can be run at lower pressures making the bike feel more solid. There would be a speed penalty but more in terms of acceleration and on tough climbs. Having moved from 700x23 via 700x28 and settled on 700x32 I can say I was pleasantly surprised by how little difference the larger tyres made to my average times. I think I mentioned on another thread tyre pressures which, for someone of your size, really don't need to be way up there. At 16 stone I never ran more than 100 psi in a 700x23 and had no troubles with punctures.

 

[lulubel]

Unfortunately not much. The biggest deciding factor of twitchiness is trail (see this). It is practically certain that your road bike's head tube angle would be a couple of degrees steeper than your mtb's, and the rake/offset of your road bike forks is also likely 6 or 7mm greater than that of your mtb forks. These, despite the road bike wheel probably being slightly larger in diameter, will likely cause the road bike's trail to be around 20% less than that of the mtb, making it more twitchy/responsive. Finally, it is also likely that your mtb forks/front wheel etc. would weigh two or perhaps even three times more than that of your road bike, which might also contribute slightly to a steadier feel.

I think the head tube on my Cross Check is slightly less steep than on a "normal" road bike, but only by one degree (I found this out when I was looking at frame geometry and working out how head and seat tube angles would affect reach), but the forks have quite a large offset, which would cancel that out. The front end is definitely a lot lighter than my MTB, although again heavier than even an entry level road bike because it has quite hefty steel forks.

There is no question that a light, decent road bike on 700x20c at high pressure will go like it is on rails with minimal effort on decent tarmac. But to my mind there is also no question that the most comfortable, unhurried, go anywhere fun ride is a quality full susser on a diet. If I can only have two bikes they will be it.

I'm really hoping to get down to one bike. When we sell the car, it will be hard to justify paying €50 a month for the garage space just to keep a couple of bikes and some junk in it, and there's only space for us to have one bike each in the apartment. I know it will be a compromise between speed/comfort and on/off-road ability, but that's something I'll have to accept.

Now on your OP question regarding a straight swap and feel difference, well handily I've done exactly what you describe on two bikes.... I can confidently say that, once the positioning was sorted out, the bikes felt pretty much the same either way. Or at least the difference in feel was small enough that it became normalised within one ride. I would add that the wider bars did reduce the skittish type feel but I then moved to wider flared drop bars and got pretty much the same result.

That's pretty much what I was thinking. I'm making it skittish because I fidget! So, wider bars will allow me to fidget without affecting the bike much. I've tried a bike with wider drop bars, and it didn't feel comfortable for me (particularly not when I was on the drops, which - for me - is the point of having drop bars). The bars I use currently are female specific - 38cm wide with a small and shallow drop, and I'm not comfortable with anything wider. This does create the problem of my hands being very close to the stem if I ride on the tops. My MTB has 58cm bars, which I know are on the short side, and I would be more comfortable if they were slightly longer.

Leaving aside how weird it would look for a moment, I think someone needs to design flat bars that have drop sections on the front, shoulder width apart. Best of both worlds!

The last point I'd make is that it's easy to confuse speed with skittishness, as in it's skittish so it must be fast. Larger tyres are nowhere near as slow as some would have you believe. They will increase your trail number and can be run at lower pressures making the bike feel more solid. There would be a speed penalty but more in terms of acceleration and on tough climbs. Having moved from 700x23 via 700x28 and settled on 700x32 I can say I was pleasantly surprised by how little difference the larger tyres made to my average times. I think I mentioned on another thread tyre pressures which, for someone of your size, really don't need to be way up there. At 16 stone I never ran more than 100 psi in a 700x23 and had no troubles with punctures.

I don't bother with really skinny tyres anyway. I've never used anything narrower than 700x25. But I do pump them up pretty hard. There are some vile road surfaces round here, and I really, really, really don't like changing tubes at the side of the road, so I'd rather compromise on ride quality. I hadn't thought about the stability side of things. Maybe I should get some wider tyres with mega puncture protection and run them a bit softer.

Of course, that's another compromise. The one thing I love more than anything else about the new bike is the ease of riding up hills.

One thing that has occured to me since I made my first post is that I DO want a bike that's capable of handling some off-road stuff. The Cross Check is capable because it's got room for up to 45mm tyres, but there's no way I'll take it off-road unless I feel I've got significantly more control over what the front is doing. So, I'm thinking I should just convert it to flats and see how it goes. If I like it, that's great, and I can get rid of the MTB. If I don't like it, I can change it back, and use the bits I bought to upgrade the MTB (which I was going to do anyway, if I keep it). So, I don't lose anything by trying it.

I'll ride it a bit more first, though, because I haven't really given myself a chance to get a proper feel for it yet.

 

[MacB]

Well there are other options and I tried a few on my Crosscheck, incidentally on one long ride we went across army range land on a trail whcih literally had bomb craters...the Xcheck coped admirably, shod in 700x35 M+ tyres at 50psi, and I had a pannier on. Just switching to wider bars isn't the whole thing as you'd also need to use a shorter stem. If you think about where your hands reach to spaced 38cm apart then widen them and you'll see the reach shortens.

On the Xcheck I ran butterfly bars, drops, flared drops, flat bars, North roads, big sweep risers and titec H-bars. My favourites were the On-One Mary Bars and the butterfly bars, on my frame that replaced the Xcheck I use the Jones Loop H-bars(mainly because it gives me the handy front part for mounting extra lights). On my MTB I have the Mary bars with stubby bar ends inboard of the grips which give about the same setup as the Jones bars, lots of pics on my Flikr account:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/37729119@N08/

I actually run the Loop bars flipped so that they drop instead of rise, the same can be done with Mary bars or Northroads. Which kind of follows logically, as in wider part closer to you and narrower part further away, which mimics what your arms would natrually want to do.