Crash - who is at fault?

[hanvyj]

Ok, I haven't been riding all that long and I had my first accident recently. Luckily I was wearing a helmet so I came out ok-ish. Anyway, I was wondering who was at fault with the above situation. The driver turned over my "lane" without looking because someone "flashed" him. I was pretty annoyed and considered it him to be at fault.

Then I went home and looked on the internet and found that its a bit of a mess. I was traveling to the left of non-moving traffic, but I was under the impression that that was the purpose of cycle lanes - otherwise they are just silly! Anyway, I have learned alot from this about the safety of what I was doing (going to the left of cars) and have decided in future to just stay the hell out of cycle lanes and act as if I was driving a car.

But I was wondering, in a court, who would be at fault in my situation? Me, for traveling in a cycle the cycle lane with slow traffic to the right, or the driver for cutting across the lane without checking? It also makes me wonder why lanes like this exist, they seem quite dangerous (especially those leading up to the "cycle box" on junctions, they are inviting cyclists to undertake traffic, which turns out is as dangerous as hell!)


I also got taken by surprise because the junction seemed to me to be marked as an exit, it has double "give way" lines on it. Tuns out the signs (invisible to me) indicate it is a one-way entrance, completely the opposite of my observation of a one-way-exit (hence my surprise at someone entering it, incidentally the driver then exited it when leaving the scene!)

I would appreciate it if anyone could clear this up for me (as I am reporting it to the police, and I want to know who is at fault if anyone is)

Thanks!

 

[Brandane]

Fairly straightforward case IMHO as a retired member of Strathclydes finest law enforcers .
The car driver is 100% to blame. Driving without due care and attention. They should have checked it was clear and not relied on the flashing headlights of another driver (which is not an official signal in any case; but yes, we all know what it means).

In addition, the car driver should have seeen the cycle lane markings and therefore should have made doubly sure that it was clear to cut across it.

Guilty m'lord.

Edit: When reporting the accident to the Police don't forget to mention any injuries you have sustained, no matter how slight they are. If it is a non-injury accident you will probably be correctly told that it is not a Police matter and that it is a matter for insurance companies to settle.

 

[Bigsharn]

Technically the car who pulled out is to blame, but the driver who flashed is also at fault. Flashing lights actually means "I'm here", but most see it as an invitation to make a manoevre like that. The driver who flashed should have checked his mirrors before doing so, and as Brandane mentioned, the driver pulling out should have checked the lane before pulling out.


Though you're not at fault, one of the best things to do to avoid that situation is to cycle up the offside (the right hand side in the UK). This means that you're less likely to be in danger, in any of the cases:
Driver pulls out of sideroad to turn left (You avoid him completely)
Driver turns right from the main road (He can see you travelling up the outside of the lane)
Driver pulls out of the sideroad to turn right (There's more chance to stop if you see him)
Driver suddenly decides to turn left into the sideroad/performs a left hook.

If there's oncoming traffic just sit behind a car until the other carriageway is clear. It'll take longer but it's a great deal safer.

 

[zacklaws]

Just one small question, going by your diagram, and that is the position your in, how did you know the car to the right of you flashed or was it dark?

Or did the car that turned in, just go for the gap of his own accord and raced in before the gap might close up if the traffic starts flowing on your side again and even try and beat yourself to it?

 

[HLaB]

From what you've said they are 100% at fault unfortunately you are the one who'll gets 99.999% hurt, they might get a slight bash in their wing/bonnet. They lanes are stupid but unfortunately a significant number of road planners/engineers still believe in their (non existent) advantages (coloured cycle lanes alert the driver to their/ cyclist presence, etc., aye right ), whereas more modern guides like Cyclecraft encourage you 'to leave the lane as soon as possible' at junctions as the guide you to conflict points.

 

[hanvyj]

Fairly straightforward case IMHO as a retired member of Strathclydes finest law enforcers .
The car driver is 100% to blame. Driving without due care and attention. They should have checked it was clear and not relied on the flashing headlights of another driver (which is not an official signal in any case; but yes, we all know what it means).

In addition, the car driver should have seeen the cycle lane markings and therefore should have made doubly sure that it was clear to cut across it.

Guilty m'lord.

Edit: When reporting the accident to the Police don't forget to mention any injuries you have sustained, no matter how slight they are. If it is a non-injury accident you will probably be correctly told that it is not a Police matter and that it is a matter for insurance companies to settle.

Thanks for the reply - I'm relived to hear that I wasn't at fault from someone who knows their stuff. I will make sure to mention my injuries to the police (been given a mammoth form to fill in)

The other think I'm unsure about is that the guy hasn't given me his full name, license plate or details. Luckily I managed to get a sneaky photo of his license plate. He gave me his first name and mobile and I have rung him a few times asking for his details. First time he seemed very reluctant, the second he said he would give me them but never did... Considering I didn't pressure him for these at the scene, I'm unsure how to fill in the form (it asks if the driver failed to stop/did not exchange names and addresses)

At the scene I was rather confused and shocked so failed to get enough details (luckily I did get one witness's details, he was rather helpful!)

 

[hanvyj]

Just one small question, going by your diagram, and that is the position your in, how did you know the car to the right of you flashed or was it dark?

Or did the car that turned in, just go for the gap of his own accord and raced in before the gap might close up if the traffic starts flowing on your side again and even try and beat yourself to it?

The driver of the vehicle got out to see if I was ok and said he had flashed. The other car was going quite fast, I'm not sure If he stopped before turning in.

Technically the car who pulled out is to blame, but the driver who flashed is also at fault. Flashing lights actually means "I'm here", but most see it as an invitation to make a manoevre like that. The driver who flashed should have checked his mirrors before doing so, and as Brandane mentioned, the driver pulling out should have checked the lane before pulling out.


Though you're not at fault, one of the best things to do to avoid that situation is to cycle up the offside (the right hand side in the UK). This means that you're less likely to be in danger, in any of the cases:
Driver pulls out of sideroad to turn left (You avoid him completely)
Driver turns right from the main road (He can see you travelling up the outside of the lane)
Driver pulls out of the sideroad to turn right (There's more chance to stop if you see him)
Driver suddenly decides to turn left into the sideroad/performs a left hook.

If there's oncoming traffic just sit behind a car until the other carriageway is clear. It'll take longer but it's a great deal safer.

Yes, I have realized this. In future I will pass on the right! Its a shame it takes an accident for me to come to that conclusion...

 

[Brandane]

The other think I'm unsure about is that the guy hasn't given me his full name, license plate or details. Luckily I managed to get a sneaky photo of his license plate. He gave me his first name and mobile and I have rung him a few times asking for his details. First time he seemed very reluctant, the second he said he would give me them but never did... Considering I didn't pressure him for these at the scene, I'm unsure how to fill in the form (it asks if the driver failed to stop/did not exchange names and addresses)

You've got the most important part as far as the Police are concerned, in the fact that you have the registration number of the car involved, and presumably a description of the driver who you would be able to identify?

As long as your bike was damaged OR you were injured, then the driver of the car is legally required to supply you with his name and address (nothing more). If he has not done that then he is committing an offence under the Road Traffic Act, so be sure to mention that to the Police as well.

As far as the form filling bit is concerned, I wouldn't worry too much about it. You can only fill in the bits that you know. Who is the form for, anyway? Insurance company? If so then they have a habit of getting you to do their work for them!

 

[andyg9053]

Taken from highway code, obviously he didnt comply so has committed a further offence.




286
If you are involved in a collision which causes damage or injury to any other person, vehicle, animal or property, you MUST

• stop
• give your own and the vehicle owner’s name and address, and the registration number of the vehicle, to anyone having reasonable grounds for requiring them
• if you do not give your name and address at the time of the collision, report it to the police as soon as reasonably practicable, and in any case within 24 hours

[Law RTA 1988 sect 170]


287
If another person is injured and you do not produce your insurance certificate at the time of the crash to a police officer or to anyone having reasonable grounds to request it, you MUST

• report it to the police as soon as possible and in any case within 24 hours
• produce your insurance certificate for the police within seven days

[Law RTA 1988 sect 170]

 

[hanvyj]

You've got the most important part as far as the Police are concerned, in the fact that you have the registration number of the car involved, and presumably a description of the driver who you would be able to identify?

As long as your bike was damaged OR you were injured, then the driver of the car is legally required to supply you with his name and address (nothing more). If he has not done that then he is committing an offence under the Road Traffic Act, so be sure to mention that to the Police as well.

As far as the form filling bit is concerned, I wouldn't worry too much about it. You can only fill in the bits that you know. Who is the form for, anyway? Insurance company? If so then they have a habit of getting you to do their work for them!

Its a form for the police.

 

[Chutzpah]

I feel for you, because I had a car do a close overtake last week, who then hit the brakes to flash a car into a minor junction on our left. She was still alongside me when she did it, god knows what she was thinking (well, when I looked into the car she looked pretty vacant)

So it can happen even if the traffic isn't stationary like it was in your case. I think the main thing is keeping an eye at on all lanes and trying to judge what on earth others could do.

 

[exbfb]

Flashing of lights hacks me right off.
It means absolutely sod all and should be ignored at all times.
If I'm flashed, I ignore it.
If someone's sitting there and can't make up there mind what to do, don't expect me to flash you.
You're your own safety officer, make yout own mind up.
As a car driver, it's my responsibility to make all my decisions, same for everyone else.

I've got into a few heated conversations with work colleagues, but I won't be backing down.
Flashing your lights could mean so many things. It could mean "after you", it could also mean "stay right there, I'm going first."
Where's the dividing line between a friendly "you first" flash and an angry "WTF do you think you're doing" flash. ?

All best ignored.

As far as I'm concerned, the driver who turned across your path and the tool who flashed his lights both need a right good slap.
Matey with the flashing lights should have minded his own business.
The idiot who went because he was flashed, should use his own brain and be repsonsible for his own actions.

P.S. Actually in agood mood right now, but this sort of idiocy gets my goat.

 

[zacklaws]

The driver of the vehicle got out to see if I was ok and said he had flashed. The other car was going quite fast, I'm not sure If he stopped before turning in.

Looks like I may be right with my presumption they were racing to get through the gap to beat the traffic.

When I did my HGV 1, 2 and 3, it was always emphasised, never to flash your lights apart for warning other motorists of your precence, in the same manner as the horn. It was also emphasised that if someone does flash there lights for any other reason, your incident is a classic situation, then that person who flashed is presumed to have checked it is safe and therefore accepts responceibility for anything that happens. Here is a little excerpt from a website:-

""""""At this point I'd also like to reiterate a piece of legal advice that you should all be aware of. Never signal that you are yielding your right of way, and never signal for another driver to "go", regardless of your preferred signaling method for this. If you are yielding for another driver, just stop and wait for them to work it out. If you signal for another driver to go, and they have an accident, it can be (and has been) successfully argued in court that it was your fault. By signaling for another driver to go, you are saying that you have verified that it is safe for him to do so and are therefore taking legal responsibility for the consequences. Arguing that he should have checked himself do not work because by signaling him to go, you have put him on the spot to act. Urgency is implied, and hence diminished responsibility. So, just don't do it. No flashing, no hand signals""""""""

Excerpt from this website:-

http://www.selfimprovementexpert.com/skills/22-a-standardised-set-of-car-signals.html

Oddly enough when I was on my class 1 test, I had a motorist who had right of way over me, stop and start flashing his lights at me to let me go as I had stopped to let him carry on. I thought "Oh f..k" what now, so I just said to the examiner, " I don't know what he's flashing at, but as he has stopped, then I will go through the gap and proceed", to which the examiner just said, "yes, just carry on".

To this day I never flash at anyone.

 

[Brandane]

Its a form for the police.

That must be new procedure since I retired. Obviously the cut-backs mean they get YOU to do THEIR work for them these days!

Same applies though....fill in the bits that you can, and take it back to them.

 

[hanvyj]

Oddly enough when I was on my class 1 test, I had a motorist who had right of way over me, stop and start flashing his lights at me to let me go as I had stopped to let him carry on. I thought "Oh f..k" what now, so I just said to the examiner, " I don't know what he's flashing at, but as he has stopped, then I will go through the gap and proceed", to which the examiner just said, "yes, just carry on".

To this day I never flash at anyone.

Thats a very good way of getting around it in a test, I was always worried someone would flash me in my driving test!

I never liked flashing or waving since I was a kid and someone in the passenger seat of van waved me to cross the road, I stepped in front of the van and it drove right into me (luckily at about 2 mph). I have no clue what I was thinking (i was nine though!) I guess I didn't think. Why a passenger would ever signal anyone to do anything is beyond me though!