Cooke v Armitstead

[Keith Oates]

It seems there is a bit of 'rivalry' building, or maybe already built, between Nicole and Lizzie ahead of the Olympic Road Race. I hope it doesn't get out of hand and compromise our team effort in getting the Gold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rich p]

Is there a disagreement or just a question as to who will be most protected?

I was slightly sceptical of Nicole Cooke's break at the end of the World Champs where she suggested she had to go for it solo, as Lizzie Armiststead wasn't around. I may be wrong but I don't think she looked too hard.

 

[Cheddar George]

I was slightly sceptical of Nicole Cooke's break at the end of the World Champs where she suggested she had to go for it solo, as Lizzie Armiststead wasn't around. I may be wrong but I don't think she looked too hard.

This appears to the problem, apparently there was an inquest after the World Champs and Armitstead had reportedly said that Cooke wasn't riding for the team and that it was an ongoing problem. Hopefully it gets sorted out by the management.

 

[Noodley]

It must be hard for Cooke, for so long the only real world class road rider in the UK, to have someone else come along and become the "new" great hope. Here's hoping it all sorts itself out.

 

[oldroadman]

Consider history, for years Cooke was the only really world calss rider capable of the wins. Therefore she was the protected rider, and always very single minded. Now time has moved on, her tactics remain the same, are more predictable, and others know how to counter them. The new generation of riders is very talented, and quite possibly LA is the best of the bunch right now. Also you could ask why when Cooke was Wiorld and Olympic champion, there was no team place for her the following season in a mjor team?
the situation is difficult, and a ral management problem, whoever is going best with the best chance should be protected (and it's only 5 riders per team). The management have to be firm and plan, but once the race is on, then what happens, happens. It appears that Cooke is not the most popular, to say the least, amongst the other GB riders, and it could result in a 4+1 team if the decision is to protect LA.
Maybe it all goes back to the Nationals, where she has had a good working over from the Garmin-Cervelo riders and didn't like it one bit.

 

[monnet]

I think this from oldroadman makes a good (and revealing) point:

<Also you could ask why when Cooke was Wiorld and Olympic champion, there was no team place for her the following season in a mjor team?>


Brilliant though Cooke is she definitely has a reputation for being prickly, shall we say? If people like Lizzie Armistead and Emma Pooley continue as they are then I think it might be better if Cooke isn't involved. A couple of the female pros ride with my club in the winter and they frequently chat about life on the continent. The impression I get is that all the british girls (regardless of who they ride for) get on really well. The glaring omission is they never mention Cooke, I've never asked about that but my wild guess would be that she's just not part of the gang, as it were, which would surely have implications for the team dynamic and the attitude that Cooke would take towards racing with them...

 

[monnet]

And here's what Shane Sutton has to say:
http://www.sportinglife.com/others/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=cycling/11/11/22/CYCLING_Great_Britain_Nightlead.html&BID=678

(apologies, not worked out how to shorten links in the new layout just yet!)

 

[ColinJ]

And here's what Shane Sutton has to say:
http://www.sportinglife.com/others/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=cycling/11/11/22/CYCLING_Great_Britain_Nightlead.html&BID=678

(apologies, not worked out how to shorten links in the new layout just yet!)

Copy the link address, type the word out that you want to replace it, highlight that, click the chain icon above, paste the link address in the URL field, click Insert. I find that the box often reappears. Just cancel it the second time and you should find your shortened ... link (like that!)

 

[lukesdad]

Nicole had to come up the hard way, racing against men most of the time here. She is a very tough lady, and you ve no idea what she s had to go through.

 

[monnet]

I don't think anyone's doubting how tough she is. None of us know what she's had to go through, but then very few of us on here know what it's like to be a pro. She's a supreme rider, no one is questioning that. Her achievements are up there with all the greats of cycling and made even more impressive that she's had to do it all on her own. The comments here relate to there having been a bust up in the GB camp, which (I grant you) none of us here know the ins and outs of (hence the thread).

 

[yello]

As I recall from reading something a couple of seasons ago, this has been a situation bubbling under for some time. It is a difficult situation, and I think the posts so far reflect that. In such situations, there rarely is a 'truth', more different perspectives.

It must be hard for Cooke, for so long the only real world class road rider in the UK, to have someone else come along and become the "new" great hope.

Also you could ask why when Cooke was Wiorld and Olympic champion, there was no team place for her the following season in a mjor team?
the situation is difficult, and a ral management problem

For my part, I think Nicole has been for so long the flag bearer. Her results are beyond question, as is undoubtedly her determination. I can well imagine that she's not always the most personable of people, people succeeding against the odds often have the kind of drive that doesn't always make for 'nice' people. She's succeeded largely in her own terms and by her own means. Perhaps she feels without the help of British cycling (which may or may not be true, I cannot know that)

Cycling in Britain has now become popular. I think that would have happened without Nicole, even though I am sure she has been a great motivation for many cyclists, women in particular.

The problem as I see it for British women's cycling is to (properly?) acknowledge Nicole's talents and strengths, and select a strong team. It's a classic management problem, as oldroadman says. I can't know the answer, not knowing the personalities involved (or, if I'm honest, the relative talents) but I suspect this one is beyond 'knocking heads together'. I think Nicole probably thinks she deserves to be top dog (and you can see why and respect that) and I can't see her settling for less. I'm just not sure that that attitude can be accommodated in a team.

 

[oldroadman]

It seems that the team will only be 4 women. No room for two leaders and two workers. So someone has to agree to work who sees themself as a potential winner and I can't see Ms Cooke doing that. A difficult one for the management, they may have to drop a very strong rider who would be an asset IF SHE AGREED TO WORK FOR THE TEAM AND STUCK TO IT. Whether this would happen is another matter, as she appears very single minded and based on what happened at the Worlds is someone (with a winner's mentality) who will look for every opportunity to go for a win. 4th at the worlds is no mean achievement, but other sports have been known to not select a defending Olympic champion for whatever reason. Wouldn't be surprised to see her on the line in London, and wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't. We all have to accept that 4 years is a long time, newer and better riders come along, we get older and lose a bit of the edge, and there is a time to step back and help the team, rather than go for something you maybe can't quite get, and not make it. On current form, Armitstead is the better rider with a far better finiand a good team job should make her the best prospect for a win, where the London finish is pan flat for ar least teh last 20km., and Cooke does better in more difficult "Gilbert" type finishes, where LA has pure speed from the track.

 

[resal]

I have got a wet Saturday afternoon in, so this is long ! I am not too sure of the agenda here and I don’t mean by any on this board, I mean at British Cycling with Lizzie and at the Women’s Cervelo team.

My copy of Cycling Weekly 17th Nov has Cooke saying “Asked if she expects to lead the team at the Olympics, she said: “Not at all, it will be quite simply judged on form in the lead up to the race.” That is not confusing and is not the statement of the spoilt prima-donne into which role, Cooke is being cast.

But I’ll start off by looking at a couple of posts from my sparring partner.

... So someone has to agree to work who sees themself as a potential winner and I can't see Ms Cooke doing that.

My copy of the Cycling Weekly has Cooke being quoted as saying “I’ll ride for whoever the leader is.”

I cannot see anything difficult there ? It seems Cooke is not saying what people would like her to say as they demonise her. This "CAT FIGHT" seems a little lop-sided. (OK we'll get to the counter argument as to whether she says one thing and does another, in a sec.)

It is a bit like the statement about teams.

I think this from oldroadman makes a good (and revealing) point:

<Also you could ask why when Cooke was Wiorld and Olympic champion, there was no team place for her the following season in a mjor team?>

Which would indeed be a valid point - if it had any connection with fact.

In 2009, the year after winning the Olympics and World titles Cooke formed her own team. This was a startlingly dull decision when set against the backdrop of the crash into a Worldwide recession, that has hit women’s road cycling even harder than the men’s scene. By mid 2009 the team folded, having failed to find sufficient sponsorships. What I think OLDROADMAN is referring to is 2010 when Cooke rode with the BC development girls. How did that happen? Team Nurnberger signed Cooke and Armstrong the Olympic RR and TT champions in autumn 2009 for the following year. Armstrong had also won the World TT champs in 2009 so was reigning TT Champ ! Team Nurnberger had been going for around 8 years and were historically either the best or 2nd best performing/founded/funded team during that time. Nurnberger won the individual and team World Cups on several occasions. As the recession bit, the city of Nurnberger pulled sponsorship. Skyter Shipping were paraded as the new sponsors. It was only in Feb 2010 that it was announced that they were also pulling the plug. So that left both Cooke and Armstrong without a team , just after every other team with any money had filled their rostas. Not surprisingly neither found a team and both rode 2010 with their federation teams. Even less surprising was that both riders had appalling seasons that year, which were complete shadows of what both had consistently achieved in the 6 or 7 years up to that time. Easily their worst to date. Cooke scraped a couple of wins, and Armstrong didn’t even get a podium anywhere and stopped the season quite soon. Quite some way to ride in the rainbow bands ! I know too many people and friends made redundant and see the effect it has on their lives, without even beginning to contemplate what it must be like to achieve Olympic and World glory and then get thrown on the scrap heap.

So then we get to Lizzie’s little outburst. That the GB women’s team were rubbish as a unit, at Copenhagen, is beyond doubt. (Whether either Cooke or Armitstead could have won if either had been protected is seriously in the realms of fantasy. That season neither beat Vos or Tuetenburg in a straight sprint.) But the poor team performance doesn’t start and finish with Cooke. What the heck did Pooley do to earn her supper or the rest of them? Brad was there stoking it along to make sure no one got away. Geraint was in the wheel, waiting to do the final delivery with CAV, in turn, on his wheel. If Lizzie was displeased with Cooke, she should be screaming her head off about Emma and couple of the others. Surely, if the team orders were that Lizzie was the chosen one,then, around the times of the crashes we should not have seen Cooke in the first few (which we did), with Lizzie on her wheel (which we did not). There should have been Emma on the front with another GB rider ahead of Cooke to take Cooke and Lizzie around the bend in 2nd and Lizzie on Cooke’s wheel in 3rd for delivery to the front at 200m to go. I don’t think any of that is rocket science. If you had a plan to win, I don’t think having your lead rider about half way down the field with a roundabout approaching, at the end of a race that was only going to ever end in a gallop, was any part of the script, unless that script was written by an idiot. In fact, of any of the team, probably Cooke was the single one in the last 3 km doing what she should have been doing! Lizzie was too far back to be in with a shout at the finish and the others just went AWOL. And it is not as though they tried and failed. They just didn't try. Laura Trott came in for praise for being agressive, but I fail to understand why a rider with her engine wasn't held back to be used for getting Lizzie to the front with 1 km to go which is exactly what she needed to have happen. Some crazy wild gesture in the middle of the race was pointless.

And then this business of the crash Lizzie was caught up in. First announcements after the race made it seem like it was either of the two at about 3km to go, just after the island and then, this week, Lizzie’s latest statement is that she never was stopped but it was in the last 300m. it was the Norwegian (? - can't find the link now!) that swerved and then she in turn had to swerve again and this baulked her final charge. Again, being baulked at that stage of the race by a rider in that position is more likely to happen than it may not. The real race was going on 20m up ahead, but you have to either be kept up there by your team-mates or get up there of your own efforts, neither of which Lizzie did. But why the lie to the press straight afterwards ?

So I am puzzled. That Shane is out there supporting Lizzie is a bit weird. The quote at the top of my comment is not a confusing message.

Neither is what Cooke said at the time of the finish to the BBC “Cooke, the defending Olympic champion, said: "We were all riding for Lizzie. She'd been doing so well and I was up there waiting for her to come up to me, but I never saw her.
"So in the end I had to just do my sprint. When we went around the last corner I thought, 'Well, I'm in a race-winning position, Lizzie's either on my wheel or she's not.'
"We're all pretty honest in the team and we want someone from the team to win, it doesn't matter who in the end. If she saw me in that position she'd want me to go for it, positions like that don't just come along."

Well we heard this week from Lizzie’s own mouth, that such bonhomie is not possessed by Lizzie.

So what were the instructions to Cooke that she thinks she was obeying and yet Armitstead and Sutton think she did not ? The lack of public censure of the rest of the team and their obvious greater failure to perform to any sane plan seems so contradictory. Cooke was surely the final lead out rider and so would need to be in a position near the front - check. Where were the rest of those who should have been making sure Lizzie was put onto Cooke’s wheel ? Cross. Emma would undoubtedly have had plenty of gas left in the tank after the club-run, that was that race, to be able to muster 1km of effort down the side of the bunch, if she saw Lizzie out of position. And surely if Emma was not on 4th from final lead out duties, as her talents would so ideally place her, she was tasked with riding shotgun on Lizzie’s back wheel, ready to pull past in case of crisis. What sort of plan did BC hatch? How much effort had they put into practising it and drilling the routine ? Why did Simon Cope get the push ? Why have the BBC pulled the story they had on their web site about it ? This seems like it was dreamt up on the night before the race, like in the bad old days of the BCF before they became competent.

And if Sutton is now doing some of his "coaching and support" via the media (just how unprofessional is that!) where is his advice to Lizzie, if she is to contemplate ever beating Bronzini, Vos or Tuetenburg.

The whole lot and the timing just doesn’t smell right and certainly it stacks up with the facts about as well as Oldroadman’s wild and unfounded swipe at Cooke about teams or unwillingness to work with others. It is almost as if there is a faction out there with a mission to demonise anything Cooke does or says, even if she does her job correctly. I think the earlier comment about not being part of the GANG is quite telling but not in any way the author intended it. What Brailsford does if Garmin do fold the women’s team, will be interesting.
At the moment the whole lot just doesn’t seem very professional or well thought through. I’m not convinced that the women winning a road medal at London is what Sutton or Brailsford want. If they do, then I for one am certainly puzzled about how they are going about it. Confuse the enemy ?

 

[lukesdad]

I don't think anyone's doubting how tough she is. None of us know what she's had to go through, but then very few of us on here know what it's like to be a pro. She's a supreme rider, no one is questioning that. Her achievements are up there with all the greats of cycling and made even more impressive that she's had to do it all on her own. The comments here relate to there having been a bust up in the GB camp, which (I grant you) none of us here know the ins and outs of (hence the thread).

There's no bust up its a gang against an individual.

 

[yello]

Thank you for that post resal. It certainly filled in some holes in my knowledge.

I'm wondering what underlies this dispute. I can't imagine it's all over the what Cooke did or didn't do at the Worlds. It must run deeper than that surely?