Campagnolo Powershift / Quickshift front cable pull

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winjim

Smash the cistern
Anybody know what the difference is between a PS double and a FB/QS triple shifter in terms of cable pull?

Basically I want to know if I can use an 11sp PS double shifter with a 10sp FB triple front mech to shift an 11sp chain between the two inner rings of a 10sp triple chainset.
 
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winjim

winjim

Smash the cistern
Or alternatively, how small a chainring will an Athena 11sp double front mech reliably cope with?
 
Smallest ring the 11s double FD is designed for, is 34T (all models).

Max difference it is designed for is 16T
Min big chainring, 46T

What's the full set up you are trying to achieve?
Do we assume you are trying to make a double with 30/39 10s (so the triple chainset, but with no outer ring) but running an 11s chain?
If it's a 10s system, you'd be better with a 10s FD ... same min chainring size.
 
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winjim

winjim

Smash the cistern
Smallest ring the 11s double FD is designed for, is 34T (all models).

Max difference it is designed for is 16T
Min big chainring, 46T

What's the full set up you are trying to achieve?
Do we assume you are trying to make a double with 30/39 10s (so the triple chainset, but with no outer ring) but running an 11s chain?
If it's a 10s system, you'd be better with a 10s FD ... same min chainring size.
I have a bike with Athena 11sp, compact crankset 34/50. I also have a collection of Veloce 10sp flatbar bits which I'm going to use to build up a nice low-geared triple. In the meantime I want to see if I can use some of the Veloce bits to temporarily lower the gearing on the Athena bike. So yes, a double 30/39 with the inner two rings of a 10sp triple chainset, with an 11sp chain.

I need the low gearing to lug a toddler in a child seat plus luggage round Sheffield and the Peak District.
 
Ummmm ... thinking about this one.

It's a million miles "off reservation" so with my Campag hat on, I have to say "don't do it" ... However ...
There are times when my Campag hat is in the wash and I can look at things like this as an interesting challenge :-D

Are you using a braze on type front mech and a clip on a conventional round-tube frame, or a braze on fitted to a braze-on fitting? Or a front mech with it's own integrated clamp?

I'm thinking about ways to change the position of the FD to make it work more reliably with the "super compact" ring combination. As it stands, I think it will produce a lousy shift and cable pull may be the least of your worries :-(
 
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winjim

winjim

Smash the cistern
Of course we all know about Campag's warnings of fatal consequences should you stray even slightly out of spec, but...

Both mechs (Athena 11sp and Veloce FB 10sp) are braze ons with the clip on adaptor, so vertical adjustment should be possible. Bear in mind that this is only meant to be a temporary arrangement so I don't need the shifting to be perfect, just tolerable until I can get the other bike built up.

If this arrangement is causing you concern, have you seen this thread where @TheCyclingRooster is using a Veloce double mech with FB shifters to shift a 26/38/46 triple?
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/m...-a-pre-owned-naked-frame.224154/#post-4969343
 
It's not so much a question of the height - it's about how far from the FD cage the chainring is, at the tail of the cage. If it's too far away, there may not be enough rigidity in the cage to get a clean small to big ring shift as it's the part of the mech "behind" the ring that initiates the shift.

Repeated pushing of the lever across with more force or enthusiasm that should be needed in order to "force" a shift might eventually cause lever failure (it is one cause that we know of) so it'd be important to get as clean a shift as can be managed.

So - if you use a non-Campag band on adaptor for your braze on mech, the majority allow a little radial motion of the FD in the location where the curved part at the front of the FD body actually fits - the part that corresponds to the braze on.

As you will be working quite a long way inboard (in effect you are moving the chanline "in" about 2 mm from where it would normally be), provided you can do it without the spring on the back of the FD fouling anything, you can try to mount the FD with the clip rotated "forwards" around the seat tube, so instead of having the "braze on" at the "6 o'clock" position (if you were to look at in in plan with the gear side lower-most), if you can move it towards the "5 o'clock" position, that will pull the FD forwards and in towards the frame slightly, so allowing (maybe) a better shift. The limit to how far you can take that game is the degree of rotation that the fitting allows (given that the cage of the FD needs to be parallel to the chainrings) and the bulk of the derailleur return spring - it depends on the seat tube size as to whether it will foul the seat tube when fully over to the left for the small-ring-to-large-sprocket combination or not. On 28.6 mm dia seat tube, you have quite a lot of room to play with, on a 35 mm dia seat tube, none at all.

I think an entry level, Veloce or similar, 10s FD, if you have one, would work better than an 11 and it will save you a bit of FD trimming - I'd probably be inclined to fit a chain catcher or given the ring sizes, maybe a dog-tooth as well. though. if you are keeping your 11s chain - the 10s cage is wider than the 11, so it doesn't work to control the chain on downshift quite as well.

Possibly needless to say, all the above is tried at your own risk - if your shift is lousy, you look down to see what's going on and end up under a bus, that's your call, not mine!

I saw the @TheCyclingRooster set-up. I've done similar things for people but whether it works and how it works have a lot of contingencies. It'll work in some cases but not all and in some situations where it does work, it'll work better than in others. It's a lot easier to advise when you actually have the bike in front of you in the real world ... the Campag specs (just like SRAM, Shimano etc) are what they are because they have been real-world tested within the specifications given - apart from and beyond that, there are things that can be "made" to work but unless as a manufacturer you are going to start publishing a long and complex set of caveats, it's better just to say, "follow the spec and it will work & work safely, stray outside of it and dire things could happen". From a warranty point of view, where materials, workmanship and function are all being guaranteed, it's pretty much essential.
 
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winjim

winjim

Smash the cistern
It's a 28.6mm seat tube so should be room for adjustment. So would you say a Veloce double should work better than the Veloce FB triple?

Regarding chain catchers, on my other bike I tried to install a Campag chain catcher on a braze on Chorus mech with a genuine Campag clip on adaptor but it wouldn't fit. Am I doing something wrong or are they not designed for that setup?
 
It's a 28.6mm seat tube so should be room for adjustment. So would you say a Veloce double should work better than the Veloce FB triple?
Probably, yes.

The Triple FD is designed to be mounted at a height that would clear a 52 ring but if you do that, I suspect that when you come up from the 30 to the 39, there is a reasonable chance of the chain over-shifting with some frequency. Normally the big chainring would act us a buffer preventing any chance of that but of course it may not be fitted ... If it's there but not in use, then mount the FD as per a normal set up and just use the lever's cable pull capacity and the mech's stop screws in the normal way. You may want to use FD-CE011, a cable routing washer, to slightly adjust the cable pull ratio but it may not be necessary - hard to be 100% sure because you are a bit "off reservation" with this.

If you want to work without the big ring in place, I think you'll be better to mount the 10s double lower down, like a normal FD but as discussed above, a little further forwards.

There will be an inevitable element of suck-it-and-see in this.

There are two different Campagnolo chain catchers, so you may have the wrong one. FD-SR003 and FD-SR203.
FD-SR003 should mount, with a longer bolt where the bolt isn't part of the FD itself (as in EPS FDs), on braze-on fittings 2014 ans previous + all EPS.
FD-SR203 is designed for 2014 -> and EPS fittings.
 
Hi winjim & Graeme. Just and update after an alert that I had been tagged.
The 'set-up' is still working absolutely fine albeit a bit of fine tweaking was needed on the rear derailleur cables and a very small adjustment to the limit screws and cable on the front derailleur by my local bike guru - for no other reason than I do not a cycle maintenance stand nor the room to set one up.
The front derailleur cable was not quite slack enough to allow the derailluer cage to fully relax in the required position over the 26T ring.
The fine tweaking is not something that you can set to perfection without a stand and suspending the bike from a door-frame is taking maintenance just a tweak to-far.

I have a 10spd rear cassette with a 10spd Centaur rear derailleur plus a Stronglight Triple on my Steve Goff that is also running off of a Campagnolo 10spd double front derailleur but that is operated with a Centaur Triple lever.
The Steve Goff is a 28.6mm Columbus seat-tube as opposed to the 31.8 seat tube on the Bianchi.

That was all set-up by myself and works whipped cream smooth right across the extremes. As I recall it was a 108mm spindle in the bottom bracket cartridge.
 
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