Campagnolo 12 speed weirdness

[cyclintom]

Installing the chain on a Campagnolo 12 speed is not the same as installing a chain on any of the other groups. If you closely read the installation instructions from the Campagnolo installation manual site you discover that two things are critical to the chain installation - crankset and chain stay length. Because of disks most modern chain stays have vertical dropouts and 415 mm chain stays.

My older steel Moser instead has a 400 mm chain stay. And I use a normal (non-CX) crankset. Now, you would think that having shorter chain stays would mean you have to have a shorter chain but just the opposite. Instead of needing 110 links in the chain, I need 112 links for it to shift properly. And believe me, it is critical to shifting that the chain length is exactly correct. The 110 length chain recommended in the technical manual would jam in the big ring shifting up to the larger cassette cogs rather than shifting correctly. The LONGER chain shifted correctly without noise or the derailleur arm dragging on the cogs.

This chain length being so critical one had to wonder what happens to the shifting as the chain wears.

Now I liked the 11 speed shifters because Campy redesigned the rear derailleur so that it could handle a 32 tooth maximum cog rather than the 10 speed maximum of 28 or 29 teeth or the Centaur pushing that to 30 teeth. I'm getting older and slower and a weaker climber and I need the additional teeth. This gave Campy a LOT of additional sales so they expanded that on the 12 speed to a 34 tooth maximum cog.

But my question is that why all of those gears? I spend all of my time shifting to the 11 for downhills or the 32 for uphills. I simply don't use all of those intermediate cogs and would be much happier with a 9 or 10 speed where so much shifting isn't necessary. Just the redesign of the rear derailleur.

I love the intuitive action of the Campy levers, but sooner or later they are going to step over the line. I understand that on their latest electronic shifting they have eliminated the button and reverted to a Shimano-like double lever. That is a bridge too far and I think that they will learn that, not from the pros who couldn't care less, but from the sports riders like me who presently can shift without thinking whether it is the top button or the slightly lower one to push,

 

[StuAff]

Installing the chain on a Campagnolo 12 speed is not the same as installing a chain on any of the other groups. If you closely read the installation instructions from the Campagnolo installation manual site you discover that two things are critical to the chain installation - crankset and chain stay length. Because of disks most modern chain stays have vertical dropouts and 415 mm chain stays.

My older steel Moser instead has a 400 mm chain stay. And I use a normal (non-CX) crankset. Now, you would think that having shorter chain stays would mean you have to have a shorter chain but just the opposite. Instead of needing 110 links in the chain, I need 112 links for it to shift properly. And believe me, it is critical to shifting that the chain length is exactly correct. The 110 length chain recommended in the technical manual would jam in the big ring shifting up to the larger cassette cogs rather than shifting correctly. The LONGER chain shifted correctly without noise or the derailleur arm dragging on the cogs.

This chain length being so critical one had to wonder what happens to the shifting as the chain wears.

Now I liked the 11 speed shifters because Campy redesigned the rear derailleur so that it could handle a 32 tooth maximum cog rather than the 10 speed maximum of 28 or 29 teeth or the Centaur pushing that to 30 teeth. I'm getting older and slower and a weaker climber and I need the additional teeth. This gave Campy a LOT of additional sales so they expanded that on the 12 speed to a 34 tooth maximum cog.

But my question is that why all of those gears? I spend all of my time shifting to the 11 for downhills or the 32 for uphills. I simply don't use all of those intermediate cogs and would be much happier with a 9 or 10 speed where so much shifting isn't necessary. Just the redesign of the rear derailleur.

I love the intuitive action of the Campy levers, but sooner or later they are going to step over the line. I understand that on their latest electronic shifting they have eliminated the button and reverted to a Shimano-like double lever. That is a bridge too far and I think that they will learn that, not from the pros who couldn't care less, but from the sports riders like me who presently can shift without thinking whether it is the top button or the slightly lower one to push,

Nope, not yet. Patents suggest that they might do that with the next iterations, but all EPS versions so far have the same shift actions as mechanical.

 

[Cycleops]

But my question is that why all of those gears? I spend all of my time shifting to the 11 for downhills or the 32 for uphills.

Mainly to satisfy the clamouring from their shareholders who demand higher and higher profits. And of course to meet the pointless demand for more gears and to keep up with Shimano.

 

[Graeme_FK]

Installing the chain on a Campagnolo 12 speed is not the same as installing a chain on any of the other groups. If you closely read the installation instructions from the Campagnolo installation manual site you discover that two things are critical to the chain installation - crankset and chain stay length. Because of disks most modern chain stays have vertical dropouts and 415 mm chain stays.

My older steel Moser instead has a 400 mm chain stay. And I use a normal (non-CX) crankset. Now, you would think that having shorter chain stays would mean you have to have a shorter chain but just the opposite. Instead of needing 110 links in the chain, I need 112 links for it to shift properly. And believe me, it is critical to shifting that the chain length is exactly correct. The 110 length chain recommended in the technical manual would jam in the big ring shifting up to the larger cassette cogs rather than shifting correctly. The LONGER chain shifted correctly without noise or the derailleur arm dragging on the cogs.

This chain length being so critical one had to wonder what happens to the shifting as the chain wears.

Now I liked the 11 speed shifters because Campy redesigned the rear derailleur so that it could handle a 32 tooth maximum cog rather than the 10 speed maximum of 28 or 29 teeth or the Centaur pushing that to 30 teeth. I'm getting older and slower and a weaker climber and I need the additional teeth. This gave Campy a LOT of additional sales so they expanded that on the 12 speed to a 34 tooth maximum cog.

But my question is that why all of those gears? I spend all of my time shifting to the 11 for downhills or the 32 for uphills. I simply don't use all of those intermediate cogs and would be much happier with a 9 or 10 speed where so much shifting isn't necessary. Just the redesign of the rear derailleur.

I love the intuitive action of the Campy levers, but sooner or later they are going to step over the line. I understand that on their latest electronic shifting they have eliminated the button and reverted to a Shimano-like double lever. That is a bridge too far and I think that they will learn that, not from the pros who couldn't care less, but from the sports riders like me who presently can shift without thinking whether it is the top button or the slightly lower one to push,

The difference in chain length setting is only in 12s mechanical. 12s EPS is the same as a conventional Campagnolo system.

If you look at the way that the jocket cage pivot is arranged on the mechanical 12s system, you will see why - the top jockey is offset on all other CA systems, where the top jockey & the jockey cage share a common centre on 12s mechanical.

In 12s mechanical, on any given sprocket, as the rider shifts from small to big chainring and back again, the cage rotates - but unlike other CA systems, the parallelogram does not change angle.

This means that a slightly different approach to chain length is required, to ensure that for all possible recommended combinations of chainring size and cassette, there is adequate chain.

So - shock - RTFM.
Don't assume that because a procedure has always been used before, with new technology, that the same procedure will be used again. Campagnolo also have a different procedure for 1x13s.

On the question of gearing - you assume that all riders ride the way that you do - they don't. In racing, it's useful in very many instances to match cadence with riders around you - hence using the full range of available gears - consider, too - the most efficient run of chain is to the centre of the cassette so given the increasing spread of gears required, to keep the most-used sprockets towards the centre of the cassette and to maintain sensible (and for the RD, quick and reliable jumps) between sprocket sizes, more steps are needed. Hence, for TTs, the pros ride 54 or 55T chainrings (which Campagnolo offer to the teams), not to have a bigger top gear - that's not required in most cases - but so that the chain can be kept nearer the centre of the cassette.

All modern systems offered have to comply with professional team's requirements. simply because the UCI rules state that all materials used by the pro teams have to be commercially available. Hence, the special frames used at the Olympics by Team GB in 2012 had to be offered for sale. The cost of one that those frames were offered at, will show you why groupset makers don't develop one technology for the commercial market and something wildly different for the pro teams. It is simply not commercialy viable.

Increasing the number of sprockets as cassette ranges widen, is not a case of "keeping up with" Shimano or SRAM. Campagnolo's launches of 9, 10, 11,12 and 1 x 13s all predate those of Shimano.

 

[Graeme_FK]

Mainly to satisfy the clamouring from their shareholders who demand higher and higher profits. And of course to meet the pointless demand for more gears and to keep up with Shimano.

Well, do you think any company does anything at all, if not to return shareholder value?
Remember this is your hobby, it's a lot of other people's livelihood ...

 

[Cycleops]

Well, do you think any company does anything at all, if not to return shareholder value?
Remember this is your hobby, it's a lot of other people's livelihood ...

Didn’t say there was anything wrong with making a profit did I? I’m sure some of my pension fund might be tied up with Shimano Inc so I’m not complaining. No relevance they produce stuff for the hobbies of cycling and fishing. My point is that it’s Just as well to remember that are there to make money when they are vying for your hard earned and pushing products at you that are maybe of questionable usefulness.