Broken spokes

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jb1066

New Member
hi newbie here, I have a 2016 trek allant hybrid which is just over a year old and done about 600 miles,about 3 weeks ago was riding up a hill (seated not pushing hard) and a spoke broke on the back wheel, took it back to the shop and they fixed it (£20) then yesterday was riding the London to Brighton and as climbing a hill same thing happened, as I was 2 miles from the half way stop I rode to stop as they have a mechanic there. By the time I got there 4 spokes had gone and another one broke while he fixed it, he got me going and it made to the end but he said he would replace all the spokes or buy a new wheel, my questions is, should this of happened on a fairly new bike? Why did it happen?
I quite a big bloke 6ft 4 22 stone so I purposely avoid bumping curbs etc so it's not been abused.
Do I need a stronger wheel if so any recommendations?
John
 
Location
Loch side.
At 140 kgs you will always be a wheel breaker. Don't expect to get away with standard wheels made for people half your weight. No off-the-shelf wheel will give you the durability that promotes peace-of-mind. Have an experienced wheelbuilder build you a set of heavy duty wheels with at least 36 spokes per wheel (it is difficult to find suitable hubs with more spokes) and make sure the wheels are built with double-butted 2.0-1.8-2.0mm spokes from a reputable brand and that the wheels are properly stress relieved before riding them.
 

si_c

Guru
Location
Wirral
Something like this should work well for you. http://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s178p3374/SPA-CYCLES-Handbuilt-Heavy-Duty-Wheelset.They're not cheap, but they should last and SPA have a good reputation, but if you speak to them they'll be able to advise on the suitability of the wheels more.

Being realistic, you're in the position where you need a solid set of wheels that are rated to take a good amount of weight, the AT-750 rims are decent, but you're probably exceeding the weight limit on them. This being the case, you'll either have to accept that you'll need to rebuild the wheel periodically or spend a bit more and have piece of mind.
 
Location
Loch side.
Something like this should work well for you. http://www.spacycles.co.uk/m2b0s178p3374/SPA-CYCLES-Handbuilt-Heavy-Duty-Wheelset.They're not cheap, but they should last and SPA have a good reputation, but if you speak to them they'll be able to advise on the suitability of the wheels more.

Being realistic, you're in the position where you need a solid set of wheels that are rated to take a good amount of weight, the AT-750 rims are decent, but you're probably exceeding the weight limit on them. This being the case, you'll either have to accept that you'll need to rebuild the wheel periodically or spend a bit more and have piece of mind.
Those wheels in your links seems to have the right configuration except for the use of straight-gauge spokes. The quality concerns me because the company/wheelbuilder there clearly doesn't understand why spokes break - specifying the wrong spokes on the right hand side for the wrong reasons. There are only two reasons to use straight-gauge spokes:

1) An odd wheel where the spokes are so short as to not be available in double-butted.
2) Cost.
 

si_c

Guru
Location
Wirral
Those wheels in your links seems to have the right configuration except for the use of straight-gauge spokes. The quality concerns me because the company/wheelbuilder there clearly doesn't understand why spokes break - specifying the wrong spokes on the right hand side for the wrong reasons. There are only two reasons to use straight-gauge spokes:

1) An odd wheel where the spokes are so short as to not be available in double-butted.
2) Cost.

Now that you mention it, I remember you've said something similar before, although for the life of me I can't remember the reason for your assertion, I'll have to dig out the old post later when I'm not in work.
 
Location
Loch side.
Would Sapim Strong spokes 2.3 - 2.0 - 2.3 be advantageous?

No.

The issue is not strength. Strength is a much misunderstood concept so I'll approach it slowly.

If you use a hand winch to reel in your 10-ton boat from the water, you'll know that turning the crank is relatively easy. Strength is not required, just a bit of patience and some aerobic capacity. This is because the grearing in the winch does all the "strength" work for you. You are not strong. Park that.

If you take a piece of wire from a coat hanger and pull on it, you'll manage to pull the form out of shape somewhat. You can hook your foot in one end of the loop and pull on the other end of the loop until your biceps bulge, but you cannot break the wire. However, if you sit down and bend the wire repeatedly at the same place, you'll eventually break it. But you are still not strong. You simply exploited a loophole in the metal's strength called metal fatigue. To break something in metal fatigue is extremely easy, if a bit laborious. But, given some patience, you'll get there. If you have never broken a piece of coat hanger wire as a schoolboy, then you have not lived. Quickly go and catch up before reading further. You will not understand unless you've done this.

Now, imagine that same piece of wire being a bit thicker - say 20%. You'll instinctively know that it will be a bit more difficult to get it to bend but if you put your mind to it, you'll get there and eventually, weaken the metal and break it. You can carry on making the wire thicker and thicker up to a point where you can no longer bend it. No problem. Put the rod (thick piece of wire) in a vice, slip a piece of pipe over it and wiggle it forwards and backwards. Eventually it will break.

However, you still cannot break the wire, no matter how thin, in tension. By that I mean you cannot break it by pulling on it. We can say the wire is strong in tension, but weak in fatigue.

Back to spokes. Spokes break not from tension but from fatigue and just about always at the J-bend at the elbow. A break at the threaded end is somewhat different and we'll leave that for another discussion. The J-bend is our focus for now. What happens here is that each time a spoke is right at teh bottom of the wheel, it loses a bit of tension. This is because your weight is bearing down on it and it loses a bit of tension. It's like slackening a guitar string a little bit. It is still in tension if it can produce a tone but we know it is slacker when the tone goes down the scale. The same happens with a spoke each time a wheel turns with you on the bike - the bottom spoke loses a bit of tension. When this happens, the J-bend bends a bit. Just a little bit and definitely not as much as when you bent the coat hanger wire. With enough revolutions of the wheel, the bend area goes brittle, a crack develops and this quickly grows through the material and wham, the spoke breaks. I like to say it doesn't snap but have been called a pedant here for that description. To me, a snap would indicate a tensile (forceful pulling) break. Nevertheless, the spoke breaks in fatigue.

Back to thicker spokes. In order to prevent that cyclical bend in the J-bend, the spoke has to be very, very thick. Just a little bit of thickness such as that practically available to us, won't make much of a difference. Maybe 10 000 more revolutions of the wheel for each 0.1mm of extra thickness. 10k revolutions isn't much. Spokes last for millions and millions of revolutions.

Why thick-thin-thick spokes? Also called double-butted (actually swaged but that's another story) spokes, these spokes are thicker at the two ends and thinner in the middle. This thickness is not there to make the bend stronger, it is there to make the centre span weaker. Yes, weaker. With a weaker centre span, more of the flex is taken up by the straight (and therefore not vulnerable) thin section of the spoke. If you can absorb the flex in a smooth, straight section of the steel, the flexing force on the ends is reduced. This small feature alone adds millions of revolutions to spoke life. If you can now perform a bit of metallurgical magic to the spoke ends, you add even more revo's to the spoke life - to the tune of tens of millions. This magic is called stress relief. Stress relief in metal is a process whereby the crystalline structure is normalised. It is routinely used in manufacture, welding, cold forming etc etc. Stress relieving wheels is a wheelbuilder's secret. Although it is an open secret few builders understand it, hence the crappy wheels we read about here.

In summary, making the spokes thicker won't give any notable advantages and using spokes that are the same thickness throughout is downright stupid.
 

si_c

Guru
Location
Wirral
No.

The issue is not strength. Strength is a much misunderstood concept so I'll approach it slowly.

If you use a hand winch to reel in your 10-ton boat from the water, you'll know that turning the crank is relatively easy. Strength is not required, just a bit of patience and some aerobic capacity. This is because the grearing in the winch does all the "strength" work for you. You are not strong. Park that.

If you take a piece of wire from a coat hanger and pull on it, you'll manage to pull the form out of shape somewhat. You can hook your foot in one end of the loop and pull on the other end of the loop until your biceps bulge, but you cannot break the wire. However, if you sit down and bend the wire repeatedly at the same place, you'll eventually break it. But you are still not strong. You simply exploited a loophole in the metal's strength called metal fatigue. To break something in metal fatigue is extremely easy, if a bit laborious. But, given some patience, you'll get there. If you have never broken a piece of coat hanger wire as a schoolboy, then you have not lived. Quickly go and catch up before reading further. You will not understand unless you've done this.

Now, imagine that same piece of wire being a bit thicker - say 20%. You'll instinctively know that it will be a bit more difficult to get it to bend but if you put your mind to it, you'll get there and eventually, weaken the metal and break it. You can carry on making the wire thicker and thicker up to a point where you can no longer bend it. No problem. Put the rod (thick piece of wire) in a vice, slip a piece of pipe over it and wiggle it forwards and backwards. Eventually it will break.

However, you still cannot break the wire, no matter how thin, in tension. By that I mean you cannot break it by pulling on it. We can say the wire is strong in tension, but weak in fatigue.

Back to spokes. Spokes break not from tension but from fatigue and just about always at the J-bend at the elbow. A break at the threaded end is somewhat different and we'll leave that for another discussion. The J-bend is our focus for now. What happens here is that each time a spoke is right at teh bottom of the wheel, it loses a bit of tension. This is because your weight is bearing down on it and it loses a bit of tension. It's like slackening a guitar string a little bit. It is still in tension if it can produce a tone but we know it is slacker when the tone goes down the scale. The same happens with a spoke each time a wheel turns with you on the bike - the bottom spoke loses a bit of tension. When this happens, the J-bend bends a bit. Just a little bit and definitely not as much as when you bent the coat hanger wire. With enough revolutions of the wheel, the bend area goes brittle, a crack develops and this quickly grows through the material and wham, the spoke breaks. I like to say it doesn't snap but have been called a pedant here for that description. To me, a snap would indicate a tensile (forceful pulling) break. Nevertheless, the spoke breaks in fatigue.

Back to thicker spokes. In order to prevent that cyclical bend in the J-bend, the spoke has to be very, very thick. Just a little bit of thickness such as that practically available to us, won't make much of a difference. Maybe 10 000 more revolutions of the wheel for each 0.1mm of extra thickness. 10k revolutions isn't much. Spokes last for millions and millions of revolutions.

Why thick-thin-thick spokes? Also called double-butted (actually swaged but that's another story) spokes, these spokes are thicker at the two ends and thinner in the middle. This thickness is not there to make the bend stronger, it is there to make the centre span weaker. Yes, weaker. With a weaker centre span, more of the flex is taken up by the straight (and therefore not vulnerable) thin section of the spoke. If you can absorb the flex in a smooth, straight section of the steel, the flexing force on the ends is reduced. This small feature alone adds millions of revolutions to spoke life. If you can now perform a bit of metallurgical magic to the spoke ends, you add even more revo's to the spoke life - to the tune of tens of millions. This magic is called stress relief. Stress relief in metal is a process whereby the crystalline structure is normalised. It is routinely used in manufacture, welding, cold forming etc etc. Stress relieving wheels is a wheelbuilder's secret. Although it is an open secret few builders understand it, hence the crappy wheels we read about here.

In summary, making the spokes thicker won't give any notable advantages and using spokes that are the same thickness throughout is downright stupid.

Thanks, that's interesting. As a side note, how do straight pull spokes compare to standard spokes in terms of lifespan, given the absence of a bend in the spoke, and how does this then carry over into reduced spoke wheels using straight pull vs standard spokes. (I'm assuming that wheels built with a greater number of spokes reduce the deformation of the spokes at the bottom of the wheel simply by virtue of them providing additional support, happy to be corrected).
 
OP
OP
J

jb1066

New Member
Thanks for your help guys won't say I completely understand all the technical stuff lol. But I get the idea I need to lose weight,
Not sure I can warrant spending £300 on a set of wheels for the amount of cycling I do, any recommendations for off the shelf wheels that would be better than the factory fitted ones?
I've just looked at my receipt and the bike is 2 weeks out of its year warranty so the first repair would have been within the year, would I get any joy going back to the shop or Trek and trying to get something out of them or do wheels come under wear and tear ?
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
I remember you've said something similar before
@Yellow Saddle has also said (with pictures!) in another thread last month in answer to @bonsaibilly 's request "Can you just elaborate on what a broken spoke actually is or entails?":

Spoke breakage.

The terminology is important here from an engineering standpoint and we don't say a spoke snapped but we do say it broke.

Snapping implies that it was subject to tensile (pulling) forces that stretched it beyond its limit, it elongated like a bit of toffee that's stretching and eventually it separated into two pieces. This is what happens to a tow rope or similar. But it is not what generally happens when spokes separate into two bits. I say "generally" because there are instances when a spoke snaps. A good example would be a broomstick thrown into a moving wheel. The stick would enter the spokes and get trapped between spoke and fork. The rotating wheel would then stretch the spoke as if someone is pulling very hard on a guitar string and it would snap. Snap is the layman's term for a tensile break and the mode of failure is tensile (pulling). The two sections at the break display a characteristic deformation called necking. The ends taper a little and then form a cup-and-cone end. The one end displays a little cup, the other a cone. Very distinctive.

cup-spoke-jpg.137813.jpg


Here's the photo of the cup side. Notice the necking as well as the cup. Unfortunately I can't find my cone photo but the other side looks similar but fits inside this view.

Such a break or "Snap" happens in the thinnest section of the spoke. On a typical double-butted spoke this is in the mid-span well clear of the ends where the spoke is typically thicker.

Now for the real "break". These breaks look different, happen for different reasons from the above and work by a different mode. Looks: The break is clean as if cut by a laser.

Have a look:
brke-spoke-jpg.137811.jpg


Notice how there is no necking and no cupping. Notice the row of lines and notice the shiny line at the inner end of the bend. This spoke broke from metal fatigue. Small movements in the spoke caused by each revolution of the wheel where the spoke relaxes (loaded) and tensions (unloaded) causes the elbow to bend in and out a tiny amount. These little movements eventually cause the metal to crack. The crack starts at the outer end of the end and travels inwards until it reaches a point where the remaining bit is too weak to hold the spoke in tension and then it "snaps" as in the previous mode. Hence the shiny last section and its sharp little lip.

This is the most common way a spoke breaks - metal fatigue. Here the spoke breaks at its thickest section - the bend, or at the first thread under the nipple. These are the two spots most vulnerable to metal fatigue. The thread is vulnerable because the valley (called a root) of the first thread is a sharp dent in the metal where stresses concentrate and start. The bend is vulnerable because the metal there is under tension from being forced around a bent (the metal on the inside is under compression and somewhat protected).

Ironically the solution to preventing spokes from breaking is not to make them thicker. That will just make them last a few hundred revolutions longer. The solution is to make the centre span of the spoke thinner so that all the strain (elongation and shortening) happens there rather than at the vulnerable end points. This is the reason for the double-butted spoke. It is not built stronger at the ends, it is built weaker at the midspan. Another way to prevent metal fatigue is to stress relieve the spokes. That's an entire story by itself.

Back to the pothole issue. When you hit a pothole, the spokes in the load affected zone (at the hole) relax, rather than tighten up. That's why I say the hole didn't break the spoke. Just riding along stresses the spokes with each revolution and your wheels go round and round far more often than you hit holes.
 
Location
Loch side.
Thanks, that's interesting. As a side note, how do straight pull spokes compare to standard spokes in terms of lifespan, given the absence of a bend in the spoke, and how does this then carry over into reduced spoke wheels using straight pull vs standard spokes. (I'm assuming that wheels built with a greater number of spokes reduce the deformation of the spokes at the bottom of the wheel simply by virtue of them providing additional support, happy to be corrected).

They generally perform worse. Reason for this is that the weakest part of the spoke is the severely deformed mushroom head and with straight-pull spokes, the tension is borne directly on this very crystalline head. You are correct in your assumption about wheels with more spokes. It is like standing for a long period on just one leg or both legs. With two legs to support your weight, there is less strain placed on the legs and you "last" longer.

Thanks to the ever-vigilant Ajax Bay for finding one of my older posts on a similar subject. I had forgotten it is Groundhog Day.

@ the OP - You are on a hiding to nowhere in looking for off-the-shelf solutions to your problem. It is purpose-built or push, I'm afraid.
 

the snail

Guru
Location
Chippenham
How about a compromise - buy budget wheels, take them to a competent wheel builder and have them properly tensioned/trued/stress-relieved - shouldn't cost the earth? Or buy a spoke key and have a go yourself. IME the problem with cheap wheels isn't so much the cheaper spokes etc. but the useless build process.
 

si_c

Guru
Location
Wirral
How about a compromise - buy budget wheels, take them to a competent wheel builder and have them properly tensioned/trued/stress-relieved - shouldn't cost the earth? Or buy a spoke key and have a go yourself. IME the problem with cheap wheels isn't so much the cheaper spokes etc. but the useless build process.
I think the point here is that for a rider of the OPs weight, budget wheels are unlikely to have a sufficient spoke count to carry hisweight effectively.
 

PatrickPending

Legendary Member
Location
Leicester
To add something to this thread, I found that when one spoke goes, more will follow...and if your bike shop is charging £20 a spoke it could prove expensive. You can learn how to do it yourself - its not too difficult replacing and truing after a single broken spoke. However whenever this has happened to me I've just had the local bike shop re-build the wheels with good quality stainless steel double butted spokes - not had a spoke break since.....
And now when I want new wheels I just buy the hubs/rims and ask the LBS to build the wheel....
 
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