Broken spokes on turbo bike

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Velochris

Über Member
I have built about 200 wheels in my time. Never had a spoke break and had good feedback.

I built myself a simple front wheel for my turbo bike. Everything was brand new and it was built about 3 years ago. It was built as true and even spoke tension as any wheel I would have used outside.

This morning I noticed three broken spokes. All are next to each other on the non-drive side. Each one has snapped halfway along the spoke.

They have not been damaged by direct force. I can only presume they snapped when I was on the turbo and I did not hear them go. I do a fair bit of work climbing out of the saddle so don't know if that could be a cause.

They were located at around 3 o'clock if looking from the non-drive side.

Anybody experienced this before?
 

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looks like one for @Yellow Saddle
 
Location
Loch side.
It's impossible to say without looking at the spoke's break.

Post a photo like this, to show the cross-section in detail.

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Or, if you have an electron microscope handy, one like this:

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The first photo shows a fatigue break that propagated from the top of the photo to the inside of the bend.

The latter photo shows a typical tensile brake from something that was thrown into the wheel - like a spear, and the spoke then broke in tension.

Somewhere I have a photo of a spoke that broke in torsion, from overwinding when building, but I can't find it now. I still have the spoke, I can dig it out and take another photo. But not today. It's whiskey hour and I can't be late.
Anyway, my best guess is that you held the spokes with a pair of pliers when building and scored them as they twisted inside the pliers. Is that plausible?
 
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Velochris

Velochris

Über Member
Will try to take a good picture tomorrow in the daylight.

Did not use pliers and never have done. They are Sapim Race spokes, 32 spokes, so wind up was never too great. I still use electrical tape flags to gauge when the wind up stops and the turning starts.

Have built 28 hole Sapim Lasers without needing to hold the spokes and they are still going.
 
Location
Loch side.
Will try to take a good picture tomorrow in the daylight.

Did not use pliers and never have done. They are Sapim Race spokes, 32 spokes, so wind up was never too great. I still use electrical tape flags to gauge when the wind up stops and the turning starts.

Have built 28 hole Sapim Lasers without needing to hold the spokes and they are still going.
Examine the other spokes at the same spot. Something's going on there. Spokes don't just break at the same spot for no reason.
 
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Velochris

Velochris

Über Member
After trying a few so different ones I do not have a camera good enough to focus close enough at the spoke end.

All the other spokes look fine. In particular those (on both sides) around the broken spokes basically look new.

Strange one. Will replace and see if it ever happens again.
 
Location
Loch side.
After trying a few so different ones I do not have a camera good enough to focus close enough at the spoke end.

All the other spokes look fine. In particular those (on both sides) around the broken spokes basically look new.

Strange one. Will replace and see if it ever happens again.
Ok. Would you be prepared to mail a spoke to me? I'll have a look.

Also, have a look at the other spokes on that wheel on the same side as the broken ones. Look for a scratch/score at the same height as where the others broke.
 
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Velochris

Velochris

Über Member
Ok. Would you be prepared to mail a spoke to me? I'll have a look.

Also, have a look at the other spokes on that wheel on the same side as the broken ones. Look for a scratch/score at the same height as where the others broke.

There are no marks at all on any other spokes. I will PM you for your address to post.
 

rogerzilla

Legendary Member
My guess is a dodgy batch of spokes. I find Sapims less good quality than DT, specifically slight length variations that make building slower and some spokes with bad threads (they went back; 1 in 4 was unusable). Never had any issues with DT.
 
Location
Loch side.
OK, @Velochris took the trouble to post the three broken spokes to me and they arrived yesterday. Thanks Chris.

I had a good look, slept on my thoughts, took some measurments and photos, did some more thinking and now I'll see if I can come up with a solution.

Firstly, these are SAPIM spokes, double butted, and made with 18/10 stainless steel. Normally this steel is rust proof.

Of the three spokes, two were outward bound and one was inward bound. For those non-wheelbuilders reading this, it means that two spokes were from the side in the hub flange where the head would have been on the inside of the hub and one, where the head placed on the outside of the hub.

All three broke at approximately the same place. This photo shows the relative position of the breaks and as you can see, the breaks are within a range of 30mm. In this photo the ends of the spokes are lined up and the two pieces of each spoke re-united with its breakaway sibling.
Note that I'm not using the term "Snap" as I don't like it. It is vague and, to me in anyway, implies a tensile break. These breaks are definitely cracks, as you'll see later on.

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The fact that these breaks are all within a narrow band tells me that it is not a manufacturing fault. Spokes are made from continuous rolls of wire and manufacturing flaws would have shown up more randomly. The band of breakages here is narrow.

Secondly, I noticed, like Chris said, no nicks in the spokes. People holding spokes with pliers often cause such scores as the spoke twists in the pliers jaws and causes a neat break some years later when the original sin is long forgotten and buried. This is not the case.

However, there are definite signs of rust at and adjacent to the breaks. Have a look here.

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Notice how the rest of the shank is clean and rust only appears at the break site. This tells me that the rust has something to do with the break. Had rust been visible elsewhere on the spoke I would still have attributed it to rust, but then perhaps blamed it on poor material.

Here's another picture of the rust.
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Notice the very jagged crack edges. This is typical of fatigue and impurity intrusion. It is also typical of spokes made from the wrong material, such as for instance high-tensile steel. However, I've discounted that since the one spoke elbow, the one from the outbound spoke, is bend well beyond 90 degrees and had it been high-tensile steel, it would have broken there rather than in the middle of the smooth, unbent shank. I have turned on a bit of red in the photo software in an attempt to highlight the rust. The spokes are actually quite shiny and silver, not brown.

Next puzzle. From the orientation of the spoke elbow, I can tell where the rust marks are in relation to the wheel. All three of them are, within a few degrees, right on the side of the wheel. In other words, there were no rust marks on the inside of the wheel between left and right spokes, only on the outside. This has me thinking that something scratched the wheel and that something was made from mild steel. Something like a bike rack. Stainless steel contaminated with plain steel easily rusts. Anybody who has ever cleaned a stainless steel fridge door with steel wool or left some steel wool lying in the sink will know that SS rusts where it was contaminated. That bike rack or other mysterious object that scraped against the wheel had some naked steel that did the job.

This fact also sheds some light on Chris' wheelbuilding. Since the rust spots were not all exactly on the outside of the wheel and it is impossible for a flat object to scratch spokes on the protected front, back or inside, it suggests that there was still a bit of wind-up in the spokes after building. Chris can improve his wheelbuilding by paying more attention to de-twisting the spokes after building.
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The rust spots are all localised and adjacent to the break.

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Notice the jagged edges. Had these spokes "snapped" or broken in tension, these edges would have been nice and rounded or, as engineers say, necked or cup-and-coned.

Who said wheelbuilding is an art, not a science?
 

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Velochris

Velochris

Über Member
Wow. Thank you so much for the time taken and detailed reply.

Having thought about it myself I think your analysis is correct.

The turbo bike is located in a spare room used as storage. In the corner behind the bike is a big tool chest. If I need a tool I have to squeeze past the front wheel.

Though I do not remember anything specific, I could not discount having dropped a tool onto the side if the wheel. Cheap spanners etc. could easily be a culprit.

Is it likely that one spoke gave up, causing the almost instant failure of neighbouring and already damaged spokes? It seems a coincidence to all go at the same time.

As I recall they were all roughly in the 6 o'clock position when I found them broken. My guess is I have been out of the saddle on the turbo, meaning they were under some load.

Finally I'm interested in the wind up issue. I suppose I can never guarantee any residual wind up, but I would be surprised. My method is to use a tape flag on every spoke, every turn. The nipple is backed off until it is turning again and not twisting. Once full tension is achieved I also back off each spoke to make sure the nipple is turning, not twisting (stress relieving is also done during the build).

Could it be a tool, such as a spanner etc has fallen and slightly ricocheted and rotated whilst falling on the spokes, meaning impact is not in the same position on each spoke?

Many thanks again.
 
Location
Loch side.
Wow. Thank you so much for the time taken and detailed reply.

Having thought about it myself I think your analysis is correct.

The turbo bike is located in a spare room used as storage. In the corner behind the bike is a big tool chest. If I need a tool I have to squeeze past the front wheel.

Though I do not remember anything specific, I could not discount having dropped a tool onto the side if the wheel. Cheap spanners etc. could easily be a culprit.
It looks more like something scraped past the wheel or the wheel scraped past something as the bike was pushed. Not a dropped spanner.

Is it likely that one spoke gave up, causing the almost instant failure of neighbouring and already damaged spokes? It seems a coincidence to all go at the same time.

As I recall they were all roughly in the 6 o'clock position when I found them broken. My guess is I have been out of the saddle on the turbo, meaning they were under some load.

Yes, they were all three pretty much cracked so that less than 50% of the spoke's diameter was still supporting all the tension. When one went, the others went too, probably within a few hundred wheel revolutions of each other.

Finally I'm interested in the wind up issue. I suppose I can never guarantee any residual wind up, but I would be surprised. My method is to use a tape flag on every spoke, every turn. The nipple is backed off until it is turning again and not twisting. Once full tension is achieved I also back off each spoke to make sure the nipple is turning, not twisting (stress relieving is also done during the build).
A flag alone is not enough to remove windup. What you need to do is, at the end of the build, put a block of wood on the floor, kneel in front of it with the wheel like a bus steering wheel in your hand, and push down on the wheel with the axle resting on the block. Control the push but push hard enough so that the bottom spokes relax and produce clicking sounds as the spokes unwind. Work your way around the wheel and do it on both sides. Do be very careful to not overdo it as the wheel will buckle. You have to learn to control the push.

Could it be a tool, such as a spanner etc has fallen and slightly ricocheted and rotated whilst falling on the spokes, meaning impact is not in the same position on each spoke?

Many thanks again.
That's beyond the scope of my powers. You need a crystal ball for that one.

Thank you, it was fun.
 
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Velochris

Velochris

Über Member
It looks more like something scraped past the wheel or the wheel scraped past something as the bike was pushed. Not a dropped spanner.



Yes, they were all three pretty much cracked so that less than 50% of the spoke's diameter was still supporting all the tension. When one went, the others went too, probably within a few hundred wheel revolutions of each other.


A flag alone is not enough to remove windup. What you need to do is, at the end of the build, put a block of wood on the floor, kneel in front of it with the wheel like a bus steering wheel in your hand, and push down on the wheel with the axle resting on the block. Control the push but push hard enough so that the bottom spokes relax and produce clicking sounds as the spokes unwind. Work your way around the wheel and do it on both sides. Do be very careful to not overdo it as the wheel will buckle. You have to learn to control the push.


That's beyond the scope of my powers. You need a crystal ball for that one.

Thank you, it was fun.
And thank you once again.

Just for clarification the wheel has never rotated. It was built for and only ever been used on a turbo trainer. It has not had the same load and unload cycles a wheel would normally have.

In respecr of the wheel building, the process you describe is what I do during the build and referred to as my "normal stress relieving process." on top of pressing the wheel I also grab parallel pairs of spokes as well. The flag part is an additional process. I do all three to really try to elimante any residual twist. It is a lso why I could never build commercially. I take far too long, but enjoy building so don't want to rush anyway.

Just wanted to add that as any self-respecting wheel builder would like people to know they do pay attention to spoke wind up.

It has been very interesting and I thank you again. I'll never know what exactly caused it, but at least I know how to avoid it from now.

Great thread and hope others have learned from it as well.

Safe riding all.
 
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