Bow Roundabout- second death

[Poacher]

[ADMIN EDIT: This topic split off from the RIP thread in commuting: http://www.cyclechat.net/topic/96744-bow-flyover-collision-friday-111111/]

RIP

Not necessarily related to this particular case, but just when are some serious jail sentences going to be handed out for causing death by dangerous driving? It seems that most of the time the CPS go for lesser charges, presumably to improve their KPI figures. (Just a guess, but successful prosecutions are probably a Key Performance Indicator for them, and aiming higher is actively discouraged).

Was tonight an organised f**kwit event nationally, or was it just here in Dottigub? I was subjected to several insanely close overtakes in a 4 mile commute at well over the speed limit and well below 50cm clearance, including one where the overtaking vehicle forced an oncoming car into an emergency stop to avoid a head-on collision, only to turn left, no more than 10 metres ahead, into a small housing estate (where he couldn't drive further than 200 metres, unless he broke through on to the railway line). What is so important that he couldn't wait behind me for 2 seconds - I was doing 30 kph.

Sorry, shouldn't have hijacked this thread, but I needed to get that off my chest, and it didn't merit starting yet another thread.

 

[dawesome]

It's not massively OT Poacher, the Everton Smith verdict and the inquest decision in Eilidh Cairns' death have depressed the hell out of me. We are fair game, is the message I'm getting. Any one of us is fair game, if we get killed the cops will turn away witnesses, the debris will be swept up and at worst the driver will get a fine of £200. Something is badly wrong. Of course we don't know the circumstances of this tragedy, other than a family has been blown apart tonight.

 

[Matthew_T]

TBF 10 cycling deaths (2010) in the most congested city in the world is pretty good. Even though 7 of them involved HGV's the statistics are still pretty good. We will get to the stage however when there will be nothing more we can do to prevent any amount of deaths (apart from banning cycling).
I think there are enough precautions, i.e. Cycling Superhighways, and statistics are coming down (13 deaths in 2009, 10 in 2010, 11 in 2011 so far).

 

[gaz]

TBF 10 cycling deaths (2010) in the most congested city in the world is pretty good. Even though 7 of them involved HGV's the statistics are still pretty good. We will get to the stage however when there will be nothing more we can do to prevent any amount of deaths (apart from banning cycling).
I think there are enough precautions, i.e. Cycling Superhighways, and statistics are coming down (13 deaths in 2009, 10 in 2010, 11 in 2011 so far).

enough precautions? you do realise the superhighways are just a bit of blue paint, nothing super about them!
Perhaps you should read into the issues a little deeper before you comment, a good place to start is Cyclists in the City

 

[dawesome]

TBF 10 cycling deaths (2010) in the most congested city in the world is pretty good.

London isn't the most congested city in the world. We tie ninth with New Delhi. Someone died fella, there's nothing good about this.

 

[Red Light]

TBF 10 cycling deaths (2010) in the most congested city in the world is pretty good. Even though 7 of them involved HGV's the statistics are still pretty good. We will get to the stage however when there will be nothing more we can do to prevent any amount of deaths (apart from banning cycling).
I think there are enough precautions, i.e. Cycling Superhighways, and statistics are coming down (13 deaths in 2009, 10 in 2010, 11 in 2011 so far).

Statistically the total deaths may be low but the fact that 70% of them were by "HGV"* which represent less than 5% of the traffic on London's roads is far from good and points to a serious problem with HGV driving in the city which needs to be addressed. I regularly see cavalier and sometimes downright dangerous (through thoughtlessness) lorry driving in London that I do not see in anything like the same degree with other vehicles. If you dealt with that and brought cyclists death by lorry down to the 5% share they represent of road traffic then seven more people would be alive this year in London and seven fewer families torn apart with grief and loss. Its just not good enough and totally not excusable.

* most appear to be construction lorries rather than HGVs

 

[Matthew_T]

The bad thing is that cyclists are dying. Fit, healthy cyclists who enjoy riding around enjoying the countryside and scenery. It wouldnt be so bad if the fat, aggressive drivers were dying because they are strapped up in their little tin cans and dont care for anyone else on the road.

It is utterly terrible that things like this happen but that is what might direct cyclists to have a bad overall attitude towards drivers.

 

[gaz]

The bad thing is that cyclists are dying. Fit, healthy cyclists who enjoy riding around enjoying the countryside and scenery. It wouldnt be so bad if the fat, aggressive drivers were dying because they are strapped up in their little tin cans and dont care for anyone else on the road.

It is utterly terrible that things like this happen but that is what might direct cyclists to have a bad overall attitude towards drivers.

A death is a death, it doesn't matter how 'fat' they where or what vehicle they drove.
What is a problem is when TFL say this "there is nothing that we can do to make the roundabout safer, without causing traffic jams."

 

[Raa]

The bad thing is that cyclists are dying. Fit, healthy cyclists who enjoy riding around enjoying the countryside and scenery. It wouldnt be so bad if the fat, aggressive drivers were dying because they are strapped up in their little tin cans and dont care for anyone else on the road.

It is utterly terrible that things like this happen but that is what might direct cyclists to have a bad overall attitude towards drivers.

What indeed?

Perhaps that fact that drivers:

Make our towns and cities into stressful unpleasant places to be.

Pump the air full of cancerous filth.

Are generally not sufficiently skilled to be in charge of such dangerous machinery.

Tend to have a worldview informed by far, far too many hours sat behind a steering wheel insulated from their surroundings by a safety cage.

Etc, etc, etc Bottom line is: driving in a city is basically an antisocial act.

 

[albion]

It was mentioned that there were 10 cycling deaths in the capital in the first 6 months of 2011.Has it doubled then?

 

[albion]

http://www.guardian....ng-road-layouts

http://www.uel-cyclists.co.uk/cycling-news/13-london-cycling-news.html
http://lcc.org.uk/ar...le-superhighway

Boris effectively says 'it is personal choice, you don't have to go that way'.

 

[Bicycle]

It is awful when anyone is killed. RIP the victim in this collision. All my children cycle regularly on fairly snarly, busy roads and we are all one sneeze away from a ghastly phone call from the emergency services.

Nonetheless, I still find London a good place to cycle.

It may be contentious to say it, but I'm not sure what really can be done to improve things.

There are junctions and roads I avoid if i can, but I know that there is always a chance something bad will happen.

What is a realistic expectation in terms of road deaths in the TfL area? No deaths per year? I don't think so.

Five deaths a year? Twenty?

Whether we like it or not there is a political sensitivity to slowing traffic flow. If there is concern that something won't play well on polling day, there will be caution about doing it. It has ever been so.

It is awful that people are maimed and die, but no legislation will prevent this completely. Despite having kittens when my children ride on busy roads, I think I'm pretty cool with the way things are.

 

[Raa]

It is awful when anyone is killed. RIP the victim in this collision. All my children cycle regularly on fairly snarly, busy roads and we are all one sneeze away from a ghastly phone call from the emergency services.

Nonetheless, I still find London a good place to cycle.

It may be contentious to say it, but I'm not sure what really can be done to improve things.

There are junctions and roads I avoid if i can, but I know that there is always a chance something bad will happen.

What is a realistic expectation in terms of road deaths in the TfL area? No deaths per year? I don't think so.

Five deaths a year? Twenty?

Whether we like it or not there is a political sensitivity to slowing traffic flow. If there is concern that something won't play well on polling day, there will be caution about doing it. It has ever been so.

It is awful that people are maimed and die, but no legislation will prevent this completely. Despite having kittens when my children ride on busy roads, I think I'm pretty cool with the way things are.

That's a very narrow way to view the situation.

What we have is the dirtiest, least efficient form of transport available being prioritised over the cleanest, most efficient form of transport available. That's pretty ****ed up by any measure even if you ignore the estimated 50,000 Londoners who are killed by air pollution each year.

 

[Bicycle]

I appreciate that you think my view is narrow. I'm not sure I gave a view; rather a pragmatic and sanguine resoponse to a ghastly situatuion.

Nonetheless, I think the great majority of Londoners, city-dwellers and motorists would be at odds with the views you gave earlier.

What indeed?

Perhaps that fact that drivers:

Make our towns and cities into stressful unpleasant places to be.

For most people, cars do not do this. In democracies, the majority tend to carry the larger sword.

Pump the air full of cancerous filth.

Vehicle exhausts do contain carconogenic substances; so do many other things.

Are generally not sufficiently skilled to be in charge of such dangerous machinery.

If by the word 'generally' you are referring to anything more than a fairly small minority, I'm afraid the World at large disagrees with you. Most people think that most road users are competent.

Tend to have a worldview informed by far, far too many hours sat behind a steering wheel insulated from their surroundings by a safety cage.

You have me there. My weldanschauung is formed entirely by the time I spend behind the wheel of my car. When I'm riding my bicycle, painting the upstairs landing, replacing roof slates and picking orchard fruit I waste no time thinking about the bigger things. Like all other motorists, I define myself and my place in society purely by the act of driving.

Etc, etc, etc Bottom line is: driving in a city is basically an antisocial act.

Sorry, I couldn't give a serious response to the last statement. Anyway, it is clear that it is I who have a narrow view. Yours seems truly enlightened and in keeping with that held by the great majority of your fellow Londoners.

I must learn to broaden my mind.

 

[her_welshness]

I appreciate that you think my view is narrow. I'm not sure I gave a view; rather a pragmatic and sanguine resoponse to a ghastly situatuion.

Nonetheless, I think the great majority of Londoners, city-dwellers and motorists would be at odds with the views you gave earlier.



Sorry, I couldn't give a serious response to the last statement. Anyway, it is clear that it is I who have a narrow view. Yours seems truly enlightened and in keeping with that held by the great majority of your fellow Londoners.

I must learn to broaden my mind.

I don't think you need to broaden your mind and I do not think that anyone is suggesting that. I think you need to be less timorous. I certainly believe that legislation can change things. We cannot just accept this situation. A lot of places in Europe have banned lorries and HGV's from driving at peak times and in rush hour. That might be a start. And how about this http://www.eilidhcairns.com/wd81/ which sets out to improve safety measures on these vehicles. There are things that we can do.