Bosch Battery Bafflement!

[Maharg]

Five years ago I inherited a then nigh-on brand new Raleigh Motus GT ebike from a friend who had passed away. It's a fine bike, a heavyweight compared to my other (wholly self-propelled) top-of-the-range touring bike; but that's only to be expected, of course. Other than that, no problems. . . until now. The issue is a security one concerning the bike's Bosch Powerpack 500 battery. Whenever I remove it from the downtube for recharging purposes, I use the key that comes with the bike's built-in rear wheel locking mechanism. The problem is this: until now I've always assumed that the battery, once re-installed on the bike, is secured against theft. Indeed, I used to check it for this soon after I became the bike's owner, and on each occasion found that it was safe from itchy fingers. So I left it at that. Then the other day, after having recharged the battery and put it back on the bike, I noticed straight afterwards that it was no longer securely locked in place. So I sought advice from a local ebike dealer who explained to me that the battery needs an additional key to secure it to the bike. This came as a shock to me, recalling all the times I've left the bike (otherwise securely locked) outside supermarkets, and the like. However that might be, soon after chatting with the ebike dealer I rechecked the battery and was startled to discover that it's now once again securely locked to the bike's downtube cradle! So my question is this: do Bosch batteries have some kind of time-locked mechanism built into them. . . or not?

I apologise for this lengthy word salad. It's just that even now I know so little about ebikes, hence the need to cover all angles. Thanks for reading it anyway.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

I have a Motus - the basic one not the GT - so only the 300 battery
I came with only a key (plus duplicate) for the battery and it locks the battery in place quite well

I am sure a decent crowbar could get it off with some effort if a thief wanted it but it seems secure in normal use

 

[fritz katzenjammer]

There’s no timer, but I have found when servicing these things that if the mounts for the batteries are not secure and properly aligned the batteries can be fiddly to mount or remove and that the lock may not fully engage. So check to be sure everything is still tight and square to the battery.

 

[wiggydiggy]

There’s no timer, but I have found when servicing these things that if the mounts for the batteries are not secure and properly aligned the batteries can be fiddly to mount or remove and that the lock may not fully engage. So check to be sure everything is still tight and square to the battery.

I have the same bike from 2021. If @Maharg has the same then the battery is a frame mounted on the down tube, to make sure it's secure put the connector end in first then push it in at the opposite end until you hear a click. If it doesn't click then its not locked. If its a seat post most the same technique applies but the batter is more vertical.

Theres no second key, and no timed lock but it should definately click into place and lock fairly easily.

 

[Maharg]

Problem sorted! The downtube cradle has always made a clicking sound when connecting the battery to it, good enough to allow electrical current to pass through the connectors, but not enough to lock the battery to the cradle. I've just this moment discovered that by pressing home the (installed) battery one more time results in a second, somewhat fainter click. That's the sound of the locking mechanism doing its stuff. I suspect the problem is due to a slight play in the connectors. And it must be slight indeed, if only because all it takes is a spin on the bike to self-activate the locking mechanism. A single jolt from our less than wonderful roads should be sufficient, especially given the weight of the battery. Well, well, so much for that. Mischief managed, as they say in Potter Land.

Many thanks for all the help. I would never have located the source of the problem without it, that's for sure.

 

[gbb]

It's a good heads up. My wife has the Motus/bosch set up with the battery in the rear rack. Tbh, I've always unlocked the battery but can't specifically remember always locking it when re installing...and importantly, checking the lock has positively engaged.

 

[Espresso vecchio]

Glad your problem is sorted, Maharg. We have 2 Motuses ('20 and '21) with 400 and 500 batteries but both exactly the same physical size). Yes, they definitely need a push to fit securely but only just hard enough to hear and feel the click. It is very unlikely that the pawls on the lock have worn in 5 years, or that they would ever wear out.

I sought advice from a local ebike dealer who explained to me that the battery needs an additional key to secure it to the bike. This came as a shock to me

No wonder it came as a shock. The local dealer is plainly stupid, and never to be trusted again for anything if he got a simple answer wrong. Of course it doesn't need an additional key: as you have found - locking the battery in place doesn't need the key at all as the key is only needed to remove the battery from the cradle.

On the subject of keys...my bike came with only one key as the previous owner had decided to change the standard rack for a very nice Topeak MTX QuickTrak rack and bag, and had to forgo the bike's wheel lock to accommodate the new rack. He gave (!) the lock and key to the LBS who fiitted the new rack. I took the remaining key to Timpsons to get a spare key cut: after 7 attempts it would still not work although it went into the lock OK. Money refunded with no hassle at all. As usual Timpsons gave great service - helpful and smiley - apart from the fact the key didn't work. I went online instead and ordered one direct from the website of the manufacturer in Holland...here's the good news...it came in 2 days and cost less than half what Timpsons charged.

I've ridden mine almost 2000 miles in 2 years and find it excellent - relaxed riding position, solid in a good way, comfortable and speedy. The only thing I have done is to change the sprocket on the hub gear for a much smaller one. I often keep it at 16-17mph by pedal power alone, but there again Norfolk is pretty flat! It is a nice contrast to my Bianchi road bike and French touring bike.

 

[Maharg]

About my encounter with the ebike dealer: the one piece of news I gleaned from it was when he asked me if I had any proof of purchase for the bike. I explained to him that I had inherited it from a good friend of mine who had passed away unexpectedly. To his credit the guy was cool about it, clearly realising I was telling the truth. Still, it left a bad taste in my mouth afterwards. Unfortunately I have since lost contact with my friends' family, who would have backed up my ownership of the Motus. All of which puts me in a bit of a legal quandary. It's true that my local bike shop (not the ebike one) did some servicing work on the Motus a little while back without raising an eyebrow regarding the bike's provenance. All the same it's a thought to bear in mind. What is puzzling, though, is that this issue of ownership only seems to apply to ebikes. It can't simply be due to their value, because my touring bike - a Surly Long Haul Trucker frame with costly open-sourced attachments - required me to part with even more lolly than what my deceased mate paid out for the Motus. . . and that includes the Motus's two extras: a top-end Bosch Nyon GPS computer and its 500 battery. Yet I've never had any ownership issues raised over the Surly on those rare occasions when I've taken it in to have some work done on it. Odd that.

 

[fritz katzenjammer]

About my encounter with the ebike dealer: the one piece of news I gleaned from it was when he asked me if I had any proof of purchase for the bike. I explained to him that I had inherited it from a good friend of mine who had passed away unexpectedly. To his credit the guy was cool about it, clearly realising I was telling the truth. Still, it left a bad taste in my mouth afterwards. Unfortunately I have since lost contact with my friends' family, who would have backed up my ownership of the Motus. All of which puts me in a bit of a legal quandary. It's true that my local bike shop (not the ebike one) did some servicing work on the Motus a little while back without raising an eyebrow regarding the bike's provenance. All the same it's a thought to bear in mind. What is puzzling, though, is that this issue of ownership only seems to apply to ebikes. It can't simply be due to their value, because my touring bike - a Surly Long Haul Trucker frame with costly open-sourced attachments - required me to part with even more lolly than what my deceased mate paid out for the Motus. . . and that includes the Motus's two extras: a top-end Bosch Nyon GPS computer and its 500 battery. Yet I've never had any ownership issues raised over the Surly on those rare occasions when I've taken it in to have some work done on it. Odd that.

It’s sad but we often get people through our shop looking for chargers for e-bikes they got “ off a friend“ or “from a garage sale”. There’s always something fishy in their story and you usually come away suspecting a stolen bike, hence the questions about ownership, e-bikes are the new hot target for thieves.

this issue leads to another, one of the most common causes of e-bike fires is use of incorrect, non compatible chargers

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

It’s sad but we often get people through our shop looking for chargers for e-bikes they got “ off a friend“ or “from a garage sale”. There’s always something fishy in their story and you usually come away suspecting a stolen bike, hence the questions about ownership, e-bikes are the new hot target for thieves.

this issue leads to another, one of the most common causes of e-bike fires is use of incorrect, non compatible chargers

Yup - when I bought a second hand ebike - in 2011 so before they were common - I checked it had the original charger and manual

but I have seen quite a few on the WWW saying the charger is missing or "not working"

I would suspect some of the general cheap ebikes you can get use very similar connectors
but I would be unsure about the safety of teh charging system which needs to be set up to charge at the right rate for the battery
something that uses a generic charger would worry me

which is one reason why I am happy I ended up with a Bosch - they may be expensive and fussy about you having proper Bosch stuff only - but at least I can be sure the charger is designed to work with the battery

 

[fritz katzenjammer]

Yup - when I bought a second hand ebike - in 2011 so before they were common - I checked it had the original charger and manual

but I have seen quite a few on the WWW saying the charger is missing or "not working"

I would suspect some of the general cheap ebikes you can get use very similar connectors
but I would be unsure about the safety of teh charging system which needs to be set up to charge at the right rate for the battery
something that uses a generic charger would worry me

which is one reason why I am happy I ended up with a Bosch - they may be expensive and fussy about you having proper Bosch stuff only - but at least I can be sure the charger is designed to work with the battery

Similar connectors is an issue. These are off the shelf parts easily purchased by any manufacturer. I’ve seen the same connector used on different bikes, someone who doesn’t know about these issues could easily swap chargers assuming the same connector means the same circuitry and electrical requirements, and they can be very wrong.

With no industry standards for voltage, wiring, charging and controllers it’s easy to imagine the same connector ending up on bikes from several different suppliers, each running a different wiring pattern at said connector and possibly differing voltage and charging rates on their systems.

and so another bike burns.

reminds me of back when English motorbikes ran positive ground electrical systems, I put a big sticker in the battery box of my old Triumph so I wouldn’t frig that up.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Similar connectors is an issue. These are off the shelf parts easily purchased by any manufacturer. I’ve seen the same connector used on different bikes, someone who doesn’t know about these issues could easily swap chargers assuming the same connector means the same circuitry and electrical requirements, and they can be very wrong.

With no industry standards for voltage, wiring, charging and controllers it’s easy to imagine the same connector ending up on bikes from several different suppliers, each running a different wiring pattern at said connector and possibly differing voltage and charging rates on their systems.

and so another bike burns.

reminds me of back when English motorbikes ran positive ground electrical systems, I put a big sticker in the battery box of my old Triumph so I wouldn’t frig that up.

We actually had a problems with this
Luckily it was with an ecig that my (now) wife used
At the time she used ecigs that looked like normal cigarettes but the filter part and the tobacco parts would un screw from each other and one part was the battery and the other the you bought packets of replacements for the tobacco part
(can;t remember which bit was which)

anyway - there were many different makes of the battery bit and they all used very similar chargers that screwed into them

somehow she ended up with several different battery bits and we didn;t realise how bad this could be
Stuff was just starting to appear about these things exploding but we had not really realised it meant us!

anyway - one day she put a battery thing on charge and went through to the kitchen in her house

a while later she smelt burning and went back into the lounge to find that the battery had exploded and flown across about half the lounge leaving bits of melted nylon carpet with a patch about 1 inch wide about 2 feet from where the charger was


she ditched that type of ecig very soon after!!!

 

[Maharg]

It’s sad but we often get people through our shop looking for chargers for e-bikes they got “ off a friend“ or “from a garage sale”. There’s always something fishy in their story and you usually come away suspecting a stolen bike, hence the questions about ownership, e-bikes are the new hot target for thieves.

While nursing a special loathing for bike thieves in general, sometimes innocent parties can also find themselves caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. One such person is a good friend of ours who runs a online trading business, mainly dealing in first-edition books, rare manuscripts and other objects of antiquarian interest. Unhappily his expertise in this field does not extend to bicycles, a state of innocence had him purchasing two secondhand ebikes at an auction a while back, which he had intended for his partner and himself. Neither ebike, as it later transpired, came supplied with chargers, nor even with the keys to free up their rear wheel locks. Moreover both bikes are in need of remedial care. Plainly they were stolen, as he now realises. True, he still retains the original auction sales receipts, but is now uncertain of where he stands, legally speaking.

To repeat an earlier point: while it seems that my friend walked into this situation eyes wide shut, would it have occurred had both ebikes been conventional pedal bicycles? It's been many a long year since I sold on a bike to anyone, so I have no way of knowing for sure any longer. Only this I will add: as a dedicated amateur astronomer as well as a keen cyclist, I have never encountered this provenance problem in the case of astro gear - some of which can be eye-wateringly pricey (believe me) - when selling it to third parties. So I remain puzzled.

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

While nursing a special loathing for bike thieves in general, sometimes innocent parties can also find themselves caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Once such person is a good friend of ours who runs a online trading business, mainly dealing in first-edition books, rare manuscripts and other objects of antiquarian interest. Unhappily his expertise in this field does not extend to bicycles, a state of innocence had him purchasing two secondhand ebikes at an auction a while back, which he had intended for his partner and himself. Neither ebike, as it later transpired, came supplied with chargers, nor even with the keys to free up their rear wheel locks. Moreover both bikes are in need of remedial care. Plainly they were stolen, as he now realises. True, he still retains the original auction sales receipts, but is now uncertain of where he stands, legally speaking.

To repeat an earlier point: while it seems that my friend walked into this situation eyes wide shut, would it have occurred had both ebikes been conventional pedal bicycles? It's been many a long year since I sold on a bike to anyone, so I have no way of knowing for sure any longer. Only this I will add: as a dedicated amateur astronomer as well as a keen cyclist, I have never encountered this provenance problem in the case of astro gear - some of which can be eye-wateringly pricey (believe me) - when selling it to third parties. So I remain puzzled.

Does a "proper" auction company have some responsibility to perform at least some checks as to the legal ownership of an item

Clearly people on here have more knowledge of ebikes and bieks in general than most people - so it is pretty obvious to us that this is dodgy

but if the original owners come along and want their bike back - who is financially responsible??

 

[Dadam]

Does a "proper" auction company have some responsibility to perform at least some checks as to the legal ownership of an item

Clearly people on here have more knowledge of ebikes and bieks in general than most people - so it is pretty obvious to us that this is dodgy

but if the original owners come along and want their bike back - who is financially responsible??

This isn't a legal opinion (IANAL etc) but my understanding is both the auction company and the buyers are potentially guilty of receiving stolen goods. There is a defence if you can reasonably say you bought the item "in good faith". Buyers could reasonably expect the auction house to have done due diligence in ensuring items aren't stolen. So if I was them I'd be asking the auction house some awkward questions. If the original owners come calling though, the latest buyers will have to give the bikes back with no recompense. They'd have to take it up with the auction house, probably under small claims.